Author Topic: Bends Charts  (Read 20149 times)

siriuso

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
Re: Bends Charts
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2023, 03:05:39 PM »
Hi all,

Bend Chart 017 is added to this folder.

"About Bends"
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1L-SkqQE2eXG4PudMYCn7ik2DdMPVusUk?usp=sharing


Happy Knotting
yChan


siriuso

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
Re: Bends Charts
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2023, 08:33:39 AM »
Hi all,

Bend Charts 08 and  017 were updated and 018 to 021c were added.

"About Bends"
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1L-SkqQE2eXG4PudMYCn7ik2DdMPVusUk?usp=sharing

This folder is updated.

"Bends Grouped By Appearances"
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1faTyhTmENVEApc_OKZlGXyQgWv4pCTk8?usp=share_link

Happy Knotting
yChan

siriuso

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
Re: Bends Charts
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2023, 10:56:39 AM »
Hi all,

Bend Charts 012b is updated.

"About Bends"
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1L-SkqQE2eXG4PudMYCn7ik2DdMPVusUk?usp=sharing

This folder is updated.

"Bends Grouped By Appearances"
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1faTyhTmENVEApc_OKZlGXyQgWv4pCTk8?usp=share_link

Happy Knotting
yChan

siriuso

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
Re: Bends Charts
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2023, 12:25:51 PM »
Hi all,

This folder is updated.

"Bends Grouped By Appearances"
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1faTyhTmENVEApc_OKZlGXyQgWv4pCTk8?usp=share_link

Happy Knotting
yChan

siriuso

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
Re: Bends Charts
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2023, 04:13:14 PM »
Hi all,

This folder is updated.

"Bends Grouped By Appearances"
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1faTyhTmENVEApc_OKZlGXyQgWv4pCTk8?usp=share_link

Happy Knotting
yChan


siriuso

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
Re: Bends Charts
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2023, 12:42:29 PM »
Hi all,

This folder is updated.

"Bends Grouped By Appearances"
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1faTyhTmENVEApc_OKZlGXyQgWv4pCTk8?usp=share_link

Happy Knotting
yChan

siriuso

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
Re: Bends Charts
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2023, 01:28:21 PM »
Hi all,

Bend Charts 02 is updated.

"About Bends"
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1L-SkqQE2eXG4PudMYCn7ik2DdMPVusUk?usp=sharing

This folder is updated.

"Bends Grouped By Appearances"
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1faTyhTmENVEApc_OKZlGXyQgWv4pCTk8?usp=share_link

Happy Knotting
yChan

siriuso

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
Re: Bends Charts
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2023, 12:11:41 PM »
Hi all,

Bend Charts 07, 09a and 09b are updated.

"About Bends"
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1L-SkqQE2eXG4PudMYCn7ik2DdMPVusUk?usp=sharing

This folder is updated.

"Bends Grouped By Appearances"
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1faTyhTmENVEApc_OKZlGXyQgWv4pCTk8?usp=share_link

Happy Knotting
yChan

siriuso

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
Re: Bends Charts
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2023, 11:48:16 AM »
Hi all,

This folder has been just updated.

"Bends Grouped By Appearances"
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1faTyhTmENVEApc_OKZlGXyQgWv4pCTk8?usp=share_link

Happy Knotting
yChan


alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 739
Re: Bends Charts
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2023, 12:35:03 PM »
               
        yChan, thank you for sharing your great work. Awesome, your incredible work and contribution to our
                   collective knowledge bank.  I think you are an unacknowledged genius!
                   You have many many bends that will make Mark's life easy.

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4312
Re: Bends Charts
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2023, 01:56:13 AM »
yChan, thank you for sharing your great work.
Awesome, your incredible work and contribution to our collective knowledge bank.
I think you are an unacknowledged genius!
You have many many bends that will make Mark's life easy.
"Easy"?!  The mind boggles at comprehending SOOOO many
more knots!!  (worse :: working through their Tangles!)
Yes, thank you very much, as we see the forest and all the trees!

(-;

ps : In, hmmm, one file (New & Neat-Like group)
you have "#1425A" but it's not that, but REVERSED #1425A.

And the "Sheepshank-like Bends" IMO are better named
(this class, i.e.) "Shared-Eye Joints", as the loading
on each *knotted* half is that of an Eye Knot.
(It's a quick huge class :: I counted some 300 EKs
illustrated by me over some few years, and realized
that they can be joined for 45_150 distinct such
"shared-eye joints"!  (E.g, have a BWL on one side
and an Angler's loop on the other; BWL on one side
and Fig.8 on opposite; ... and so on & on & on.
(I'm not going to separately illustrate the 45_150,
but I have done each of the component EKs.)

(And you might want to add to the one traditional one
--showing the BWLs-- the case where the Tails are returned
through the other nipping loop --putting 3 diameters in each
nipping loop.)

pps : And, please, do not tell Mark about these,
or he'll take you to task for having a chirality dearth! (((-:

agent_smith

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1519
Re: Bends Charts
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2023, 08:06:56 AM »
There would be opportunities to derive corresponding eye knots from many of these end-to-end joining knots ('bends').
And indeed, this might yield some interesting stable eye knots.
The body of work would benefit from a searchable index - at the moment, it is not a simple exercise to try to find particular knots.

I also note some duplication - for which I am unsure if its intentional or not?
Eg
'Neat and new crossed bend ' and 'Neat and new bend' are both duplicated.

I am unclear about the presentation and naming of the 'Southern Zeppelin bend'?
This isn't a new discovery and does not warrant the creation of a new name.
Zeppelin bends are created from superposed loops of opposite chirality.
There can only be S/Z or Z/S geometries.

Crossing the tails is simply a variation to an already existing structure.

siriuso

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
Re: Bends Charts
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2023, 08:34:07 AM »
Hi All,

I cannot post/reply any post in these two days. And was told to report to Admin.

I will fry to post later.

yChan
« Last Edit: November 25, 2023, 08:36:13 AM by siriuso »

siriuso

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
Re: Bends Charts
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2023, 09:12:16 AM »
Hi Alan, Dan and all,

Thanks to Alan for your support, I like your work too.

In the file (New & Neat-like group)
I am sure #1425A is right in its group. Yours so called REVERSED#1425A is better known to me as Neat & New Crossed B Bend as found in this forum. They are both in this group. #1426 and New Crossed B Bend are updated into this group.

Thanks to Dan for his comments and proposed "Shared-Eye Joints" group. I still prefer the name "Sheepshank-like Bends". The bends in this group have the appearance of the knot Sheepshank.

We know from a bend (parent bend), we Can find a lot of corresponding loop knots while a new bend is born. I just focus on new bends discovery and tying methods.

Dan, will you show me some bends as you suggested to be included in a new group showing the BWLs.


Neat & New Bend, Neat & New Crossed A Bend and Neat & New Crossed B Bend are bends with the same structure and some with different tails crossings.

The Southern Zeppelin Bend is found mentioned on page 19 of the book "A New System of Knotting" by Harry Asher. I do not find any earlier information about this bend. The names Southern and Eastern indicate  two different placements of tails crossings different from their parent Zeppelin Bend, but not relate to any chirality of this loops form.

There are 5 types of this opposite tails placements. The Parallel (Side-By-Side), Stacking Over, Stacking Under, S Twist and Z Twist.

Bends from the same parent with different tails crossings, some people may name them with X1, X2, A, B, etc. Some may name them with names as they wished, such as parent bend ABOK#1425, and its tails variant bends Oblique Bend (B17) and Snug Bend (B11).

Nomenclature in knotting is interesting, IMO, no straight rules, but thinking of the creators. I love it.

Happy Knotting
yChan


 

agent_smith

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1519
Re: Bends Charts
« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2023, 03:09:46 PM »
The notional concept of an 'eastern' and a 'southern' Zeppelin is meaningless (unless there is a properly defined reference frame).
In order to use such terms, there would have to be defined reference frame for the knot tyer - so that the 2 cords can be oriented spatially and then the tying manoeuvres performed within the defined reference frame.
Because the Zeppelin consists of 2 opposite chirality superposed loops - one can also have Z+S or S+Z (its still a Zeppelin bend).
Its the same concept with most other knots.. eg a #1010 Bowline can be shown with S or Z chirality... its still a 'Bowline'.

We need to understand that at the time these knots were first tied/published, chirality was not well understood (it was a new evolving concept), and the way a Zeppelin bend was published tended to be Z/S, and I haven't seen authors showing both chiralities (ie showing Z/S and S/Z - same goes for the Riggers bend - it was only shown in one chiral orientation). Asher took things a step further in his 'Alternative knot book' (1989) - and at page 57 he made a very clear declaration that "any loop knot can be transformed into the corresponding bend" (I think a better way to understand this is the other way around... any bend has corresponding eye knots (although not all will be stable (eg Reef/Square knot does not have any stable corresponding eye knots).

The tail crossings are simply a variation to the parent bend.
On page 59 of that book - Asher publishes the 'Easter Zeppelin bend'.
He does not make any absolute declaration that it is a distinct and new species compared to the original Zeppelin bend.
The eastern reference (again) is meaningless - it could also have been 'western'.

The same tail crossing technique can be performed with Riggers bend (#1425A) - its still a Riggers bend but with the tails crossed (its a variation of the parent bend).
Crossing the tails does not mean the creation of a brand new knot species.
I think of it as human DNA - but with a genetic variation... like a person born with an extra digit on their hand/foot. Despite their genetic abnormality, the person is still belonging to the human species.

It does appear that you are attempting to publish almost every conceivable way of uniting 2 ropes (ie 'bends') - and so for absolute completeness, including tail crossings is understanable.
If I were in your position, I would treat the 'X' versions as a 'child' of the parent bend.
So you would have say the Riggers bend (#1425A) as the parent - and then the Riggers X listed as a 'child' bend (because they are very closely related, and derived from the parent).
Same with the Zeppelin bend, there would be the X (child versions).

I am updating my technical papers (Knot Bio's) on the Riggers and Zeppelin bends and will do just that... identifying as follows:
[ ] Riggers bend S/S + child X versions
[ ] Riggers bend Z/Z + child X versions
[ ] Zeppelin bend S/Z + child X versions
[ ] Zeppelin bend Z/S + child X versions

The Butterfly bend can also be tied with tails crossed - again, these are child 'X' versions.
In fact Wright and Magowan (1928) published it as the 'X' version.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2023, 11:16:35 PM by agent_smith »