Author Topic: Hanson loop knot  (Read 4228 times)

mcjtom

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Hanson loop knot
« on: April 28, 2022, 03:17:20 PM »
I can't find much information on the properties of this loop knot.  Would anyone be familiar with it?

https://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/hanson-knot

SS369

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Re: Hanson loop knot
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2022, 03:51:16 PM »
Perhaps this will give you some more info.  http://igkt-solent.co.uk/hanson-knot/

roo

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Re: Hanson loop knot
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2022, 03:57:38 PM »
I can't find much information on the properties of this loop knot.  Would anyone be familiar with it?

https://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/hanson-knot

With even moderate loading, this loop became a challenge to untie.  I don't think I would bother with it.
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mcjtom

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Re: Hanson loop knot
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2022, 05:18:46 PM »
Thanks!  This knot has a similar structure to #1019, except the final half-hitch path.  What caught my interest in both is their adjustability.

Now, as Roo indicated long time ago, the #1019 indeed jams easily.  But the Hanson loop seems to be less jamable, although I'm not entirely sure yet.  @Roo: did you test both and do they both jam in your experience?

roo

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Re: Hanson loop knot
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2022, 12:53:35 AM »
@Roo: did you test both and do they both jam in your experience?
I believe so.
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Dennis Pence

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Re: Hanson loop knot
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2022, 11:45:55 PM »
I have to admit that I have known about the "Hanson Knot" for sometime, and was never that impressed with it.  Even when a scout leader in our district gave me a paper copy of the U. S. Patent document describing the knot and when I knew more of the history, I still did not really tie the knot much.  When I found the knot on the NetKnots.com website with a question about its history, I did share what I knew (which you can now find there).  But I recently thought that I might try to "enhance" the Hanson knot.  Before I attempted to do so, I decided I should examine the original patent document and try to tie all of the variations mentioned there by the originator, Alden Hanson.  To my surprise, I found much that I did not know.  Based upon that more careful reading, I would like to argue that what is now widely regarded as "the Hanson Knot" was not really the most important fixed loop knot presented in that patent document. 

Thus, I would like to start a discussion about how we should name and value some of the many "knots" that can be found (or are implied) in what should be called the "Hanson Knot Family."  In particular, I would propose that another knot (which is the inverse of the knot widely shown, switching the standing part and the free end) is more deserving of the name "Hanson Loop."  Then maybe we can move on to enhancing some of them in some way. 
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 11:57:02 PM by Dennis Pence »

Dennis Pence

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Re: Hanson loop knot
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2022, 11:51:45 PM »
First, a little history and some links so that others can fully participate in this discussion.  Alden W. Hanson (Midland, Michigan, USA) received US Patent 4,711,476 on December 8, 1987 for this "Knot."  Any one can get a copy of this patent document at
            https://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4711476.PN.&OS=PN/4711476&RS=PN/4711476

Apparently, he had some association with Dow Chemical Company, and my paper copy of the patent came with a cover letter from Dow that promoted the knot among scouting councils (and called it the "Dow-Hanson Knot").  This undated letter says that "The knot, which has been patented, was donated to the Boy Scouts of America by Alden Hanson ...  who has since passed away."  In the patent document, Hanson uses the twelve points of the Scout Law to label some of the diagrams.  Clearly one of Hanson's motivations in obtaining the patent was to promote scouting.

I first saw the knot in the publication by the Boy Scouts of America titled "Knots and How to Tie Them," with a printing date of 1989.  There you can find some of the diagrams copied from the patent document (with a few oddly rotated).  Presented first there is what I think should be called a "Hanson Inverse Loop" (Figures 9-10 in the patent).  Given as a variation in the BSA publication is what I think should be called the "Hanson Loop" giving Hanson's first method for tying (Figures 5-8).  Alden Hanson considered these two to be the same knot because they had the same structure (even though the standing part and the free end are switched).  But he went on to give several alternative methods for tying the "Hanson Loop."  More recent editions of this BSA publication continue to have these same confusing diagrams.  Most of the content in this old BSA publication can be found in (as well as things taken from other sources).
           http://scouts.org.ph/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/KNOTS-LASHINGS.pdf

You can also find several of the Hanson knots in some of the early editions of Knotting Matters.  Issue 84 (2004) has an article titled, "The Hanson Patent Knot," that is mostly upset that anyone would want to patent a knot.  The accompanying diagrams (by GB) show the "Hanson Loop [fixed]" (Figures 5-8 in the patent), the "Hanson Loop [sliding]" (Figures 22-24), the "Hanson Bend" (implied by Figure 34), and the "Hanson Twin Loops" (Figures 14-15) {which needed to be corrected in KM2005}.  In KM2006, Heinz Prohaska writes to claim earlier credit (1977) for the "Hanson Bend" (which he called a Ram Head Knot), and he even shows a Double Ram Head Knot (where the Overhand part is replaced by a Strangle Knot).  Prohaska seems to make no claim for any loop knots.  You can find old issues of Knotting Matters at the following site.

          www.thedump.scoutscan.com/dumpextras/othermags/Other%20Assorted/IGKT/

Here are two reputable knot websites which have recently given the "Hanson Inverse Loop."
        https://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/hanson-knot   

         http://igkt-solent.co.uk/hanson-knot/
« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 04:37:05 PM by Dennis Pence »

Dennis Pence

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Re: Hanson loop knot
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2022, 12:01:06 AM »
I find that I like best the fifth method given in the Hanson patent document for tying the "Hanson Loop."  It is post-eye-tiable (PET), and I find it as easy to tie as the common method given for the "Hanson Inverse Loop."  Here are the slight variations on Figures 20-21 that I use.  Notice that when you tie any of the knots in this Hanson Knot Family, you really need to tighten the Overhand Knot part first before you tighten the rest of the knot.

I have also found that I can use essentially a similar method for tying the "Hanson Twin Loops" which is tied a different way in Figures 14-15.  This way has a lot of similarity to the method for tying a Portuguese Bowline.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 12:02:24 AM by Dennis Pence »

Dennis Pence

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Re: Hanson loop knot
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2022, 12:33:59 AM »
Here are the other loop knots given in the patent document.   I am proposing to call them the "Hanson Inverse Loop" Figures 9-10, the "Hanson Sliding Loop" Figures 22-24, and the "Hanson Reversed Loop" Figures 25-27.  The first one is the one given first in the BSA Publication, "Knots and How to Tie Them," and various websites and YouTube videos are calling it the "Hanson Knot."  I am trying to disagree.  The second one below is given in the Knotting Matters 84 (2004).  The term "reversed" is actually used by Hanson in the patent document to describe how the third relates to the others.

Dennis Pence

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Re: Hanson loop knot
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2022, 04:40:29 PM »
As with any fixed loop knot, there can be many associated bends.  Usually these go by the same name, but Heinz Prohaska (in KM2006) has made a prior claim to what we might call the Hanson Bend, calling it a Ram Head Knot.  One thing Alden Hanson added in the patent document is the suggestion that this "bend" might be used as a "tie-in" (not needing either end of one of the ropes in the bend).  Here is how to tie the colored rope to the white rope without needing access to an end of the white rope.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 04:42:21 PM by Dennis Pence »

Dennis Pence

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Re: Hanson loop knot
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2022, 05:58:49 PM »
Heinz Prohaska made the claim of an earlier publication of the knot we call a Hanson Bend in the March 2006 issue of Knotting Matters, calling it a Ram Head Knot.  But he also gave an enhanced version called a Double Ram Head Knot where the Overhand Knot part is replaced by a Double Overhand Knot.  Below is one way to tie his Double Ram Head Knot.  But you can make such an enhancement to virtually any knot in the Hanson Family.  Below is how to do it for the Hanson Loop. Since Double Overhand Knots (here in the Strangle Knot formulation) tend to jam, these might as well. Thus, they might be most appropriate for modern slick cordage.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2022, 06:36:00 PM by Dennis Pence »

Dennis Pence

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Re: Hanson loop knot
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2022, 06:05:53 PM »
Here is an alternate way to "double" the Hanson Loop, which is more in the spirit of Hanson's knot structure.  Below, the Hanson Loop and the Hanson Reversed Inverse Loop are combined.  I am not sure how practical this larger knot is, but it does not tend to jam because it is so complicated.

Dennis Pence

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Re: Hanson loop knot
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2022, 06:14:27 PM »
One more thing!  In several videos, when they show how to tie the Hanson Inverse Loop, they comment on how easy it is to adjust the size of the loop before the final tightening is completed.  But, to a large extent, they are only able to make the loop smaller, with the excess that they pull out of the loop being essentially wasted in a longer free end.  (See the first attachment below.)

With the Hanson Loop, you can easily make the loop smaller or larger before the final tightening.  Here the changes are added to or subtracted from the standing part.  (See the second attachment below.)

Also, above Roo complains about the jamming of the Hanson Inverse Loop.  One can speculate that this is because the "Overhand Part" in the inverse knot gets tension on both ends when the knot gets a heavy pull.  In the Hansom Loop that I prefer, the same "Overhand Part" only gets tension on one side (with the other side becoming the free end).  The tension on both sides is for the "Crossing Part" (or nipping loop), making it less likely to jam under a heavy pull.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 06:45:22 PM by Dennis Pence »

 

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