Author Topic: A Very Practical Knot Challenge  (Read 4990 times)

mcjtom

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A Very Practical Knot Challenge
« on: May 06, 2022, 04:51:17 PM »
There have been threads discussing 'best' or 'favourite' knots.  The lists were typically varied and somewhat long.  So here is a challenge: name only 1 (and 2 and 3) knot(s) that are worth knowing - single knots, no variations (as in e.g. 'bowlines, in general' or both: slipped and unslipped versions as a single knot), no obvious composites (as in e.g. Truckers' Hitch).  Complexity/ease of learning or tying/inspectability are not of concern if you only know one knot (or two or three).

For knowing only one knot, I would pick Scott's Simple Lock Bowline (a.k.a. Woven Bowline). 

Decent fixed loop; double safety if you can remember only half of the knot (e.g. when times are stressful); can replace many object hitches and some nooses/binding hitches (may not be exactly like Timber/Killick but useful enough for dragging a bunch of Christmas trees behind a truck); interconnected loops form an OK bend (that's not a variation - just tying the same knot twice on two different rope ends); seems to reasonably hold on a variety of rope sizes and materials, including somewhat slippery and/or stiff ones and bungee cords; doesn't shake loose that easily when slack and mostly easy to untie after relatively heavy loading; can be tied one-handed, with the other hand holding the standing part; can even make the Poldo Tackle with two of these...

Also, although this may be controversial given the contest rules, it can replace at least one use of a midline-loop, such as the Butterfly, by using 'the same' knot to attach a second rope in the middle of another one - thinking of the construct as a loop, the second rope masquerading for its working end.

Zeppelin Loop would serve almost just as well, but it requires pre-overhand (I think this is called non-TIB?).

For the set of two or three knots, I think I need a bit more thinking as some choices may work well in combination.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2022, 06:03:32 PM by mcjtom »

mcjtom

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Re: A Very Practical Knot Challenge
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2022, 05:22:39 AM »
For the set of three knots, in addition to the Woven Bowline for all its versatility described above, I would add Butterfly midline loop and Backhand hitch (Munter wrap and two half hitches, as it reduces the tension on the final half hitches roughly as well as two round turns - https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=7281.0).

This combination will allow for attaching rope under tension to an object - possibly one-handed, for some binding ability, and for constructs such as the Trucker 'hitch'.

I still don't know what the most useful set of two knots could be.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2022, 07:08:11 AM by mcjtom »

mcjtom

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Re: A Very Practical Knot Challenge
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2022, 08:25:47 AM »
For the set of two knots I would propose Gnat hitch and Zeppelin bend.  You're losing a fixed loop, but the Gnat can be used in many places when a fixed loop is normally used and adds noosing and binding ability.

p.s. While pretty ugly-looking, it is possible to tie two Gnat hitches to form a bend between two ropes (in a fashion of double Fishermen/Grapevine bend or even hitch-to-hitch).  I'm not sure how good such a bend would be, but if any good it would replace the functionality of the Zeppelin bend, so maybe the Zeppelin bend could be replaced by some other knot that would add more genuine functionality to the mixture.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2022, 11:11:38 AM by mcjtom »

mcjtom

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Re: A Very Practical Knot Challenge
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2022, 12:40:44 PM »
Just to explain the quest - I kind of see it as similar to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_if8-CkTZE

SS369

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Re: A Very Practical Knot Challenge
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2022, 02:58:58 PM »
My personal 3 most used, practical, pretty much handle most situational needs are: S- Locked bowline, overhand bend and constrictor knots.

ParLeijonhufvud

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Re: A Very Practical Knot Challenge
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2022, 05:17:54 AM »
My personal 3 most used, practical, pretty much handle most situational needs are: S- Locked bowline, overhand bend and constrictor knots.

Overhand bend? I have been taught that the overhand bend is weak, but as always would love to be corrected. I know it is used in some climbing situations, but there the ability to pass over edges or through carabiners is a special consideration

SS369

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Re: A Very Practical Knot Challenge
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2022, 12:01:43 PM »
Oh yes, the Overhand bend. I use it climbing (not very often and not everything is climbing related), but mostly during work and home. Lets face it, I'm not going to tie another more complicated bend to join say Mason's cord or thread.
All knots weaken the material, so I just choose what I deem most appropriate regarding material, knots and situation.

ParLeijonhufvud

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Re: A Very Practical Knot Challenge
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2022, 04:05:15 AM »
Oh yes, the Overhand bend. I use it climbing (not very often and not everything is climbing related), but mostly during work and home. Lets face it, I'm not going to tie another more complicated bend to join say Mason's cord or thread.
All knots weaken the material, so I just choose what I deem most appropriate regarding material, knots and situation.

That does make sense. My knotting tends to be in the context of either (1) boats, (2) bushcraft/primitive technology or (3) decorative/fancy. And e.g. willow bark cordage is far more sensitive to bending than most fibers we use today. Of course, like most of us I actually only use a relatively few knots the most (I bet that if I did the statistics it would follow the typical pareto chart curve). My most used ones probably is

1. zeppeliner bend
2. bowline?
3  tautline hitch (a lot of tarps are set up)

It really depends on context, if I'm out in the woods then the siberian hitch gets used more often, but less so on a boat, And the "doubled doubled slipped sheet bend" (i.e. doubled shoe lace knot, https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/surgeonknot.htm [1]) is tied at least two times a day, almost every day:-)

[1] Hmm, I think the illustrations there is off, at least with how I'm doing it: in the final step I "double" both the loop and the nearby tail, which matches the final illustration


mcjtom

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Re: A Very Practical Knot Challenge
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2022, 05:07:32 PM »
Any notable entries for a single knot or a set of two?  :)

wysper

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Re: A Very Practical Knot Challenge
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2022, 10:51:47 PM »
I can't get it to a single knot.

I keep trying to cheat by thinking of things like the marlinspike which can become several different knots with a few quick tweaks but that is not in the spirit of your challenge.

Like those that have posted above, the knots I use change with where I am or what I am doing. Camping, gardening, decorative knotting...

Around home I could probably get away with a couple, maybe the bowline and the farrimond hitch.

But there is no way I could get to one!


ParLeijonhufvud

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Re: A Very Practical Knot Challenge
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2022, 04:34:23 AM »
Any notable entries for a single knot or a set of two?  :)



I suppose I could semi-cheat and say zeppeliner bend/loop then. Use as a bend it is among the best, and makes a quite secure loop knot as well.
I once talked to a man who has spent a lot of time in the wild places around the world, and he told me that when he was visiting a far north group (can't recall if it was Siberia or northern Canada), and was shown what was (according to the locals) the most useful knot: a taut-line hitch.

But I personally believe that there is a number somewhere between 5 and 20 that is the optimal minimum number of knots for general purposes. Below that and you have to play games to make it do the job, and above that you are either getting into details as to which knot is optimal in a very specific situation, personal preference or esthetics.  Agreeing -- ha! -- on such a short-list would be a useful exercise, in my opinion.

mcjtom

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Re: A Very Practical Knot Challenge
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2022, 09:31:56 AM »
So these are the combinations proposed so far:

Single knot category:
  • Woven Bowline (Scott's Locked Bowline)
  • Tautline Hitch

Two knots category:
  • Gnat Hitch + Zeppelin Bend
  • Bowline + Farrimond Hitch
  • Zeppelin Bend + Zeppelin Loop

Three knots category:
  • Zeppelin  Bend + Bowline + Tautline Hitch
  • Woven Bowline (Scott's Locked Bowline) + Overhand Bend + Constrictor Knot
  • Woven Bowline (Scott's Locked Bowline) + Butterfly Loop + Backhand Hitch

With the number of knots worth knowing so severely limited, there is unlikely an ideal set and all of them have some virtue.  I wonder which of the sets would survive the greatest number of practical scenarios thrown at the user?

p.s. on personal note, Scott's selection of 3 knots, which seemed eccentric at first, may be actually quite useful...
« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 09:54:46 AM by mcjtom »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: A Very Practical Knot Challenge
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2022, 09:54:03 PM »
I can't get it to a single knot.

I keep trying to cheat by thinking of things like the marlinspike which can become several different knots with a few quick tweaks but that is not in the spirit of your challenge.
Yes, with a slight drift in the  challenge's "spirit",
one could simply say "overhand knot" and be done
with it.  Meaning that the OH can be used to make
the Fish.knot, Offset OH ends joint, ring bend, OH eye knot,
simple half-hitch, and so on.

These proposed sets of knots read way too much
like "I bet I know some knots YOU don't know!"
and not at all like "here's a sampling of real knotting
done by various task doers".   ;)

--dl*
====

mcjtom

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Re: A Very Practical Knot Challenge
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2022, 12:38:14 AM »
Quote
Yes, with a slight drift in the  challenge's "spirit",
one could simply say "overhand knot" and be done
with it.

Not slight.  Actual constructs that you actually use to perform different tasks, but drastically limit the number of them.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2022, 12:42:08 AM by mcjtom »

mcjtom

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Re: A Very Practical Knot Challenge
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2022, 03:32:26 AM »
NASA just had a special announcement: the Earth will be struck by a meteorite at midnight.  Among other consequences, the collision will obliterate all knotting knowledge, books and all, undo all the knots in existance, and inflict all experts and laymen with total knot-amnesia.  But there is hope...

Dan the Grand Knotting Wizard was given a small stone tablet and is going to etch a diagram or two on it to pass on his knowledge to future generations.  How much he wished the stone was bigger...

His first idea is clever: an overhand knot from which knotting craft will be reborn and re-evolve over time, all nicely pedigreed.  He quickly realizes that this won't do - a more practical solution is needed by midnight - there is no time for evolutions.  He suddenly has an epiphany!  Moments later he's done, satisfied with his new diagram set in stone, ready to use.  The calamity has been averted, sanity restored - at least for now...
« Last Edit: May 14, 2022, 06:03:35 PM by mcjtom »