Author Topic: My way of tying Zeppelin bend or 96-bend, if you like  (Read 4709 times)

jarnos

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 66
    • personal homepage
My way of tying Zeppelin bend or 96-bend, if you like
« on: August 13, 2022, 06:27:59 PM »
I have seen the "69" way of tying this knot, but I think it is easier to do the bights first, not loops.


By the way, when reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeppelin_bend#History, I wonder why the knot should be called Zeppelin bend after all.

P.S. added another video about the method, this time not letting go of the cords during tying:
« Last Edit: August 20, 2022, 02:37:25 PM by jarnos »
Jarno Suni

roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1927
    • The Notable Knot Index
« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 04:36:16 PM by roo »
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".

Notable Knot Index

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4365
Re: My way of tying Zeppelin bend or 96-bend, if you like
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2022, 12:59:21 AM »
By the way, when reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeppelin_bend#History, I wonder why the knot should be called Zeppelin bend after all.
Because, despite late controversy,  there is evidence that it was used on Zeppelin airships:

https://www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/zeppelin-knot-zmaz80jfzraw/
https://books.google.com/books?id=yW-2GoXscmgC&pg=RA2-PA87&dq=rosendahl+collins&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ItvNUduMC-i7igL2nIDgDQ&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=rosendahl%20collins&f=false


And counterarguments have lots of big holes and shoddy research with lots of missing, unverified documents and unexplored possibilities:

https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1902.msg21941#msg21941

https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4455.msg28262#msg28262

https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4455.msg28257#msg28257

https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6014.msg40429#msg40429

URlink to Google-copy of BOATING 1976-March
article "The Forgotten Zeppelin Knot" by Bob & Lee PAYNE.
books.google.com/books/content?id=yW-2GoXscmgC&pg=RA2-PA87&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U1PSwuTPt3XO8TcCTain_CXoovqfg&w=1280

Many THANKS for Roo's finding the URLinks for this
issue.  As one gives a good long back'n'forth about it,
just read that and you'll have the various arguments.
I quote from there my remaining best-guess:
Quote
My weak surmise is that this Joe Collins did exist, and was
perhaps the orginator of the knot, but wanted to make a
*legend* for it
(something to make it intriguing).

Roo decries the arguments that Rosendahl knew nothing
about the knot, nor was it likely known & used by anyone.
His points regarding the presented evidence have merit,
but then he's far too generous on according merit to one
equally completely UNcorroborated magazine article.

I'll add to My Surmise :: that (was he then a "surviving"
only brother?) Lee Payne (nb: MJones misspell 'Paine')
had his doubts about the story, and esp. upon getting
word from the alleged USN Cmndr supposedly insisting
upon a knot THAT NO ONE HAS A PEEP OF EVIDENCE
ABOUT, OTHERWISE, and so wanted to distance himself
from the article's assertions as it as heading for reprint
and further circulation.

One might wonder if Joe Collins --assumed real-- somehow
got wind of Bob Thrun's 1966 article.

(Note that the orig. article is off by a decade --"40 years ago"--
for operations in the relevant 1926..29 (for Rosendahl) period.)

One must ask :: why is there not a single peep of this
knot besides the re-printed article?
Why no military documentation?  (There IS for the Speir knot.)
Why did this keenly interested in knots and esp. THIS knot
Joe Collins not have something to say about the USNavy's
use or losing of the knot --surely he'd have contacts there,
and wonder at that.  (And why didn't he return to other
duties/ and teach this knot he found so great?!)

.:.  There is just way to LITTLE information to support
the Boating article, IMO.

--dl*
====
« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 09:00:07 PM by Dan_Lehman »

roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1927
    • The Notable Knot Index
Re: My way of tying Zeppelin bend or 96-bend, if you like
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2022, 01:50:55 AM »
(Note that the orig. article is off by a decade --"40 years ago"--
for operations in the relevant 1926..29 (for Rosendahl) period.
40 years back from the 1976 article would be 1936 and thus close to the time mentioned at the beginning of the article: "The U.S. Navy's last rigid airship was dismantled in 1941".

Quote
One must ask :: why is there not a single peep of this
knot besides the re-printed article?
Why no military documentation?  (There IS for the Speir knot.)
Why did this keenly interested in knots and esp. THIS knot
Joe Collins not have something to say about the USNavy's
use or losing of the knot --surely he'd have contacts there,
and wonder at that.  (And why didn't he return to other
duties/ and teach this knot he found so great?!)

.:.  There is just way to LITTLE information to support
the Boating article, IMO.
Collins did mention that he was disappointed to not see it in any literature that he surveyed, and so I would presume that is why he wanted to be interviewed.  After such a length of time, I doubt very many in the Navy would have been any help to him anyway.

Quote
I've read every book on knots that I could find and I've never seen the Rosendahl bend in any of them. It's as If it has been forgotten along with the airship

Like Collins and his presumed lack of awareness of Thrun (he didn't have the internet that we take for granted now), we may be wrong in assuming that it cannot be found in writing earlier than a given date.  It may be residing in a dusty filing cabinet or in a landfill. 

I will add that judging by the tying method presented in the 1976 Boating article, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if a lot of Collins' students quietly rolled their eyes at a bend that they thought was way too hard to remember.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 04:41:38 PM by roo »
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".

Notable Knot Index

SS369

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2044
Re: My way of tying Zeppelin bend or 96-bend, if you like
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2022, 02:20:14 AM »
On the topic of the bend's history, I've search many a sight for the elusive knot and have yet to glimpse it. There are quite a few sites about rigid airships, ground handling and their histories. There even videos to view, squint, freeze frame and analyze.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_H16LswDU8&t=809s
Every frame capture I could isolate showed either a messy tangle, spliced eyes or cable clamps, etc.
Please give the video a whirl and see what you can find.
Apologies > Back to the topic...
Edit to add my way of tying >  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O7PgfkqskA
SS
« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 01:04:17 PM by SS369 »

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4365
Re: My way of tying Zeppelin bend or 96-bend, if you like
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2022, 09:20:19 PM »
(Note that the orig. article is off by a decade --"40 years ago"--
for operations in the relevant 1926..29 (for Rosendahl) period.
40 years back from the 1976 article would be 1936 and thus close to the time mentioned at the beginning of the article: "The U.S. Navy's last rigid airship was dismantled in 1941".
?!  The article is about Joe Collins & Rosendahl,
who assumed command of the Los Angeles 1926,
fifty years prior 1976 --typo, perhaps.  (Let's note
that Rosendahl was a new commander to others;
how much he might've altered the training can be
cast into doubt; others had been doing the work
sans the supposed Rosendahl knot for years.)



Quote
Quote
One must ask :: why is there not a single peep of this
knot besides the re-printed article?
...
Why did this keenly interested in knots and esp. THIS knot
Joe Collins not have something to say about the USNavy's
use or losing of the knot --surely he'd have contacts there,
and wonder at that.  (And why didn't he return to other
duties/ and teach this knot he found so great?!)
Collins did mention that he was disappointed to not see it in any literature that he surveyed, and so I would presume that is why he wanted to be interviewed.  After such a length of time, I doubt very many in the Navy would have been any help to him anyway.
1) Per the note send by Lee Payne in granting permission
for reprint by the newsletter, there seems to be no "interview"
but rather a recounting --to wit:
Quote
The story was told to me [Lee Payne]
by my brother, who was sailing as second mate
aboard the President Madison.  Joe Collins was
the helmsman on his watch.  The fact remains
that this is an outstanding knot that is not listed
in any of the books on the subject.  Perhaps
some of your readers will recognize it."
To me, this says that the article was based on one
co-editor's recall of conversation had well prior.
(This could help explain the error in where training
occurred --Bob's recall, not Joe's.  Zeppelin operations
were stationed at Lakehurst, well established fact.)

2) As for "after such a length of time" :: I'm assuming
that his supposed glowing impression of the knot was
with him prior and continued immediately after retirement
from the USN and working in a related field.  He ought to
have been telling about how he promulgated this wonder
knot in his further teaching (or how he tried, but someone
in upper ranks of USN rained on his parade).

Quote
I will add that judging by the tying method presented in the 1976 Boating article,
[same as given here in OP]
 I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if a lot of Collins' students quietly rolled their eyes at a bend that they thought was way too hard to remember.
"... too hard to remember" --these MANY folks who
had to be able to tie it in the dark and all???!

.:.  Again, there's simply inadequate support that
the USN ever had this knot --esp. for zeppelins.

Yes, SS369, I found it rather surprising how many
videos of old films of even The Los Angeles Landing
there are.  I also was surprised to read, in the 2nd half
of the KM article by Giles, of these airships working with
"a wire" --not even "cable", but "wire" .  I'll assume though
that this was the main line of attachment to the mooring
tower; a video clearly shows too-wiggly-for-wire lines dropped
by the LA, hitting the ground w/a puff of dirt, and then
grabbed by some fellows --one of whom soon gives it
a heave-ho and it seems to fly stage-right & then before
the filming camera!?  Still, these large lines don't look
ready to be knotted.


--dl*
====

agent_smith

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1595
Re: My way of tying Zeppelin bend or 96-bend, if you like
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2022, 03:05:54 AM »
From jarnos:
Quote
I have seen the "69" way of tying this knot, but I think it is easier to do the bights first, not loops.

This tying method has long been known and advocated by myself.
Link: http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php (at #6 in the table) - refer page 18 of that document (at bottom).

Whenever I teach new students the Zeppelin bend, I use this method.
...

Quote
I wonder why the knot should be called Zeppelin bend after all.
An article in a boating magazine was the genesis of the name - and it stuck (refer attached image).

Doubt has been cast on the purported use of the 'Zeppelin bend' in actual airship ground handling.
The history is murky, and when you try to dig for facts, its hard to find any 100% beyond reasonable doubt.
Here's something to consider... Clifford Ashley did not publish this 'bend' in his masterpiece ('ABoK') in 1944.
I would have thought that Ashley would have desired to include this knot - but no - it is absent.
Why is this so?
Its an interesting question...
Ashley did a lot of research and put a huge effort into publishing 'ABoK' - and somehow missed the 'Zeppelin bend' in 1944.
The publication date is after the alleged airship ground handling era.

Seamen / Navy personnel typically used spliced eye terminations in their ship mooring lines.
They never (or very rarely) created rope joining knots in mooring lines at sea (and if rarely they did - it wasn't the 'Zeppelin' bend).
I'm in the camp that believes they used mooring lines with eye spliced terminations - and if a joint was required - they used a robust toggle.

EDIT NOTE:
In the attached article, 'Joe Collins' states:
"We used the Rosendahl bend because of its superiority to the Carrick bend, Bowline,
or Sheet bend, all of which are more likely to jam under a heavy load."


This information is factually incorrect.
Bowlines don't jam - presumably he meant linking the eyes of 2 simple (#1010) Bowlines?
Also, the Carrick bend is jam resistant (including in its capsized energy stable state - which is actually 2 inter-linked Crossing knots, ie #206 Munter hitches).
All of these 'bends' could have been used in lieu of the Zeppelin bend - and would have been more widely known.
A Sheet bend can be tied with one line under tension - form and hold a 'bight' in the tensioned line first...
Although I'm uncertain if there is a known jamming threshold with Sheet bends?
More likely - Sheets bends are jam resistant.

And due to this incorrect information from the 'Joe Collins' article in Boating magazine, it causes me to have doubts about its authenticity.
Bowlines dont jam... and a Carrick bend (capsized state) is also jam resistant.
Hmmmm....
« Last Edit: August 17, 2022, 08:27:56 AM by agent_smith »

SS369

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2044
Re: My way of tying Zeppelin bend or 96-bend, if you like
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2022, 12:46:59 PM »
On the Off topic of its history; I have yet (to date) seen this bend in any literature of the time frame we're discussing. Had it been available then (or now perhaps) I have the question: Why wouldn't the U.S. Navy, or anywhere in our world be insisting its use?

roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1927
    • The Notable Knot Index
Re: My way of tying Zeppelin bend or 96-bend, if you like
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2022, 03:12:41 PM »
On the Off topic of its history; I have yet (to date) seen this bend in any literature of the time frame we're discussing. Had it been available then (or now perhaps) I have the question: Why wouldn't the U.S. Navy, or anywhere in our world be insisting its use?
I could imagine that it could have been trialed or at least considered but later rejected due to the difficulty of execution or low success rate among average users who may have only needed it on rare occasion, especially as advances in simpler, error-proof joints emerged.  It's possible that the rarity of use may also have doomed extensive documentation and spread.

I'm still surprised at how slowly the bend spread near the beginning of the internet age.
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".

Notable Knot Index

roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1927
    • The Notable Knot Index
Re: My way of tying Zeppelin bend or 96-bend, if you like
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2022, 03:32:06 PM »
In the attached article, 'Joe Collins' states:
"We used the Rosendahl bend because of its superiority to the Carrick bend, Bowline,
or Sheet bend, all of which are more likely to jam under a heavy load."


This information is factually incorrect.
Bowlines don't jam - presumably he meant linking the eyes of 2 simple (#1010) Bowlines?
Also, the Carrick bend is jam resistant (including in its capsized energy stable state - which is actually 2 inter-linked Crossing knots, ie #206 Munter hitches).
All of these 'bends' could have been used in lieu of the Zeppelin bend - and would have been more widely known.
A Sheet bend can be tied with one line under tension - form and hold a 'bight' in the tensioned line first...
Although I'm uncertain if there is a known jamming threshold with Sheet bends?
More likely - Sheets bends are jam resistant.
Perceptions of difficulty of untying can vary significantly when you vary rope size and rope material.  I would be hesitant to pass judgements on his perceptions without walking a few miles in his shoes with the manila ropes of the day. 

Also, sheet bends are not nearly as jam-resistant as their bowline relatives.
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".

Notable Knot Index

SS369

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2044
Re: My way of tying Zeppelin bend or 96-bend, if you like
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2022, 03:39:48 PM »
On the Off topic of its history; I have yet (to date) seen this bend in any literature of the time frame we're discussing. Had it been available then (or now perhaps) I have the question: Why wouldn't the U.S. Navy, or anywhere in our world be insisting its use?
I could imagine that it could have been trialed or at least considered but later rejected due to the difficulty of execution or low success rate among average users who may have only needed it on rare occasion, especially as advances in simpler, error-proof joints emerged.  It's possible that the rarity of use may also have doomed extensive documentation and spread.

I'm still surprised at how slowly the bend spread near the beginning of the internet age.

IMO, if it had been used or taught in naval or sailing history, I am fairly confident that it would be in print or drawn somewhere. The USN's "Bluejackets" manual shows nil, but it does show the Carrick bend, whipped as well. Is that more or less difficult than the Z/R bend?  I believe not.
I have searched other countries's historical knot documentation and even the oldest cultures fail to show it.

If it is such a wonderful, superior method to connect ropes, (which I believe) then I would think Mr. Ashley would have included it. Even Graumont and Hensel did not include it in 1939.

Please lets not not jeer at any of the authors works.

My question is: Where could have Joe Collins actually learned this method? And why is he the only one to have ever mentioned or documented it?

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4365
Re: My way of tying Zeppelin bend or 96-bend, if you like
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2022, 05:54:27 PM »
A few more remarks, and ones that should be felt
more broadly than for the knot-at-issue here.

Bingo, A_S re asserted BWL jamming --though that is
something one has to face (the assertion/implication...)
when reading common texts about the Water BWL
--used because it's less liable to . . . jam!
Well, in fact, BWLs in some cases can get rather
tight : some slippage of dia-diminished-by-high-load
Returning Eye Leg collaring of S.Part can be squeezing
tight to prevent S.Part relaxation --have found hint of
this in flotsam-jetsam rope.

I HAVE NEVER REALLY SEEN ANY GOOD EVIDENCE OF
USAGE OF >>>The Carrick Bend<<<, esp. in SEIZED,
lattice-form :: always asserted (by the knot-book parrots)
to be unjamming, easily untied (by chopping seizings!),
and strong.  NEVER have I seen knots of this form
--this and other siezed-tails (Reeving Line Bend, e.g.) joints
tested; but in CLDay's Sailor's Knots he cites testing of
the Carrick with a pipe/stick thrust through its center (!!?) !
--which strikes me as a great way to prevent the knot
from coming through the hawse hole aboard!

EXCEPT in one brief display I caught of the USA t.v.'s
Deadliest Catch show, in which TWO MEN tied the
Carrick bend in their stiff pot warp : one man folding
and holding one end in a crossing-knot form,
the 2nd man then reeving the other line into it (and
note that this tying method allows many variations,
not all of which are okay) --so, a "capsized form" that
in fact had no capsizing, because it had not needing-capz'ing
as its start.

As for Ashley's (un)awareness, I don't see that as of
much force : he had the Shakehands knot in the form
of an eye knot, but didn't pull out what should've been
obvious as a decent ends-joint (and one that in fact I
think one can get from working with a capsized Carrick
and trying to put tails into better position); he didn't
really get what I presume is the better eye knot version
--loading what he shows as Tail.
(Ha, and *I* tied the Quick8 a LONG time back, but wasn't
able then to see that IT --i.e., my tying at that stage-- was
viable as an eye knot just so --rather, I continued reeving
a collar around the S.Part and further tucking back through.
Similarly, by accident of continuation arrow, George Russell
SHAW presents in 1933 the Constrictor, in his Step-3, but
finishes in some ambiguity, for another knot.)

But the complete absence of this knot --really, its non-use
by the USN which, like the Alaskan crabbers, surely would've
appreciated the Thrun Joint's qualities--, to me is pretty decisive.
And nOne is asking, to try to support the myth, Where did Mr.
Rosendahl learn of this knot, and have confidence such to use
it contrary to then standard practice
(and, again, note that he
was not the initial, but the 3rd commander for the Los Angeles).
(And how broadly does this airship-command go :: aboard, yes,
but to the much broader/larger ground crews --and there'd be
different ground crews for each landing location :: and THEY
are who are going to be (or not) tying this mythical knot!)

And I'm still wanting to dig further.


--dl*
====

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4365
Re: My way of tying Zeppelin bend or 96-bend, if you like
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2022, 09:59:17 PM »
...
But the complete absence of this knot --really, its non-use
by the USN which,
FYI, here's US Army documentation:
https://manuals.directutor.com/HPE/Rigging-Handbook.fm5-125/index.html?page=49

(-;

KC

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 503
Re: My way of tying Zeppelin bend or 96-bend, if you like
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2022, 04:32:47 PM »
Wonderful minimal manual of pertinent points, almost cut my teeth in this stuff on as teen with little money pre-internet !
.
Spier is handy utility tie down/not rigging grade to me like tiedown on truck over years, not so much overhead lowering;
easy to miss perhaps in Spier 2-17#3 directives:
(A) twist bight that will hold slip 
(B) so that is crossing OVER(from SPart side perspective) self before reeving bight as slip  thru
.
The lock for the slip is made in the full tension SPart side, not the softer/later ropeParts.
Easier to see if make like i do, by crossing over in SPart bight as lock first, then pull the eye crossing on top after that,
then long way home with bight of Working End/ Bitter End for slip bight around rear of SPart to reeve home thru the lock.
.
As far as Zepp, that is kinda how i lace/tie.
"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed" -Sir Francis Bacon[/color]
East meets West: again and again, cos:sine is the value pair of yin/yang dimensions
>>of benchmark aspect and it's non(e), defining total sum of the whole.
We now return you to the safety of normal thinking peoples

jarnos

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 66
    • personal homepage
Re: My way of tying Zeppelin bend or 96-bend, if you like
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2022, 06:09:11 PM »
Here is also a handy way of tying the bend:

BTW. I added another video in the original post.
Jarno Suni