Author Topic: Longhorn Hitch and Longhorn Soft Shackle  (Read 1631 times)

JRB

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Longhorn Hitch and Longhorn Soft Shackle
« on: December 05, 2022, 07:41:16 AM »
Friends,
I have devised a soft shackle with the following properties:
1. Unlike most soft shackles, the Longhorn involves the use of a toggle.  The toggle can be either soft or rigid.
2. The tails of the assembly serve as the toggle when constructed as a truly soft shackle. 
3. When using a rigid implement such as a carabiner as the toggle, I expect even greater strength, and the carabiner can serves other purposes such as rigging the assembly into a tree.
4. Is constructed of a continuous piece or cordage.
5. Inside of the soft shackle is is an inner 'hitch' which I am referring to as the Longhorn hitch, as it has resemblance to the Bull Hitch and (previously disclosed) Buffalo Hitch.  In keeping with the Bovine theme, and considering the long tails are adequately similar to the horns on a Longhorn Bull, the name seemed appropriate.  Independent of the shackle, the hitch has some interesting applications to be explored in the future. 

If anyone is aware of the publication of this device (or anything similar), I would appreciate that info.

If anyone has access to a pull testing rig, I would be happy to supply some materials if we might be able to pull this device to failure and get a strength profile.  Feel free to message me directly.

Thanks as always for your interest, comments and support.

Cheers,
JRB



wysper

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Re: Longhorn Hitch and Longhorn Soft Shackle
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2022, 09:06:54 PM »
Hi JRB,

I very much enjoy your videos and knot investigations. Your instructions are clear and easy to follow.
I am not a climber so don't use the knots your show for their intended purpose, but I enjoy learning to tie them.

I also enjoy hearing your thought process behind creating the knot/system to fulfill the need you have for the knot.
In this knot video I also appreciate you leaving in the damage to the equipment. It allows us to learn from what happened.
The perfect videos not so much!

Sorry I can't add to your knot or investigations but I wanted to let you know that what you are doing is useful, appreciated and interesting.

Cheers
Greg

JRB

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Re: Longhorn Hitch and Longhorn Soft Shackle
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2022, 06:17:51 AM »
Wysper,
I appreciate your comment more than you realize.  I do try to 'keep it real' in the sense that I try to do things in one take and if something doesn't go right, I try to laugh it off or put in a text caption to correct anything I say incorrectly. One mistake I don't want to make is to leave out detail or clarity in how to tie a knot.  That doesn't help anybody, and so I try to always tie them at least twice.  In this case, I do have a number of applications for the Soft Shackle and one of them is a rigging scenario, in case it is interesting to you, published as a new video is on the channel, link below.  But that is about Climbing, not necessarily Knots specifically.  Getting back to the Longhorn Hitch and Soft Shackle, I played around with this for a full year before publishing it and the idea to use it as a tending device for a friction hitch was conceived.  This has some tangible applications for climbers.  And I just published the video on a social media forum related to rope testing and believe I have secured a volunteer to do some strength tests in a proper test rig.  It's my expectation that the hard toggle variant will be a bit stronger than the soft toggle, but we will see.  Speculating, I believe I might get something on the order of 3X the cordage MBS as the breaking point of the Shackle.  From my research, I am told that 2.5 is fantastic, and so I will be happy with anything over 2.

mcjtom

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Re: Longhorn Hitch and Longhorn Soft Shackle
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2022, 03:33:38 AM »
This shackle seems to be pretty awesome!  Not long ago I tried to find out more about soft shackles that don't require splicing (and winch-tensioning of the knob stopper) in this thread: https://forum.igkt.net/index.php?topic=7312.msg47634#msg47634, but there was either no interest or no knowledge of them.  In your research, have you come across any other methods of making knotted soft shackles?

JRB

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Re: Longhorn Hitch and Longhorn Soft Shackle
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2023, 05:36:03 AM »
This shackle seems to be pretty awesome!  Not long ago I tried to find out more about soft shackles that don't require splicing (and winch-tensioning of the knob stopper) in this thread: https://forum.igkt.net/index.php?topic=7312.msg47634#msg47634, but there was either no interest or no knowledge of them.  In your research, have you come across any other methods of making knotted soft shackles?

Thanks for the comment, and apologies for the delay in responding.  In my research, I recall finding references to SS's made with the Diamond Knot, Better Diamond Knot, Button Knot and a few others.  The Diamond knot is a fairly complex knot to tie by the way.  But the entire set of SS's seemed geared towards something that passes a large knob through a smaller loop and can withstand high loads and still be able to be removed.  For my application, the requirements are different:  Yes, I wanted it to be very strong, but I am not planning on using this for towing a vehicle.  In a no-slack climbing application, like the one demonstrated in the 2nd video link, I never expect it to see an extreme load.  It should only see the load our body weight can generate (and not from a fall). But I also want something which is very stable where there is no chance of it opening after cyclic loading or jostling around.  Basically, it needs to be stable and fault tolerant and it needs to be easily removeable under normal loads... but if it saw an extreme load, and got jammed, it would not be a problem if we needed a tool to get it open or needed to simply cut it out. 


mcjtom

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Re: Longhorn Hitch and Longhorn Soft Shackle
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2023, 03:48:41 AM »
Hello again,


I've been playing with your Longhorn SS for a bit now and have no complaints, but didn't subject it to any serious loads.  While not the design objective, I wonder if you were able to find out what jams and/or fails under higher tensions...   Cheers!

JRB

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Re: Longhorn Hitch and Longhorn Soft Shackle
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2023, 09:54:45 PM »
First and foremost, thanks for the reply and interest.  Its always fun to share what we are tying with others of a similar interest and of course get some feedback and perform some careful experimentation!

There are really two dimensions to this introduction:
1. The Longhorn used as a hitch.
2. The Longhorn used as a soft shackle.

Regarding the former, there are many climbing applications where I need to install a BEND after tying a friction hitch and then install a carabiner in the loop that is produced.  The Longhorn hitch acts as both a bend and a hitch in one device and can be tied ultra compact and also creates a tending device.  It is demonstrated in this most recent video:

Regarding the Soft shackle, in a no slack climbing application, the only load I expect my SS to see is the load of my body.  If it ever saw significantly more than that, that would imply a fall and on non minimal slack.  I realize that a rock climber might experience this, but for a tree climber like me, that shouldn't be possible because I am always managing slack.  If it did happen, and if the SS was somewhat jammed and difficult to remove, or even if it had to be cut out, that's really not a problem.  What I am saying is that I am not recommending the Longhorn SS for applications where it will receive an extreme load.  But if it did, I only need it to hold, not necessarily be easy to untie.  In case you did not see these tests:


mcjtom

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Re: Longhorn Hitch and Longhorn Soft Shackle
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2023, 05:08:21 PM »
Have you tried tying the Longhorn soft shackle on unsheathed Dyneema cord such as the Amsteel Blue?  The reason I'm asking is that in regular Amsteel soft shackles, based on stopper/button knots, special care must be taken to seriously dress and pre-tension the button knot (and burry the ends in some versions) lest it slips undone under tension.  The (soft) toggle idea and the structure of the Longhorn seem to leave less room for slipping, but I've never seen how it really behaves under tension on such slippery material.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2023, 05:10:37 PM by mcjtom »

JRB

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Re: Longhorn Hitch and Longhorn Soft Shackle
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2023, 04:45:48 AM »
Great question.  No, I have not tried anything using Amsteel or similar products.  The (climbing) applications I am considering for this might be different than those in which we typically employ a soft shackle and so I don't have immediate plans to conduct those tests nor do I have need to use those types of materials.  I see commercial Soft Shackles used in rigging or towing applications with extreme loads.  But in my type of no-slack rope climbing, our components never see much of a load.  But like a climbing carabiner, we want them to be very strong and CAPABLE of holding a load that is 20x the expected load.  And if that ever happened, it would not be a big deal if it was jammed or even if we had to cut it out.

A similar example is that of the Hunters (aka Riggers) Bend.  It has a reputation for getting jammed under heavy loads and is generally not used in creating a Prusik Loop in favor of the Double Fisherman's knot (bend).  In actual practice, although the DF is stronger under extreme loads, it gets VERY jammed under moderate loads such as our body weight, and very difficult to untie.  However, the Hunter's bend only gets jammed under extreme loads, but under the weight of our body, we can untie it with relative ease.  I wouldn't know that if I had not put in the time to experience it myself in real world climbing situations.  And I am finding the Longhorn Hitch to be similar to the Hunters Bend in that regard: I can untie it without undue difficulty when it has been subjected to only normal loads.  That's good enough for me.  Cheers.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Longhorn Hitch and Longhorn Soft Shackle
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2023, 05:49:59 PM »
A similar example is that of the Hunters (aka Riggers) Bend.
It has a reputation for getting jammed under heavy loads and
is generally not used in creating a Prusik Loop in favor of the
Double Fisherman's knot (bend).  . . .
 the Hunter's bend only gets jammed under extreme loads,
but under the weight of our body, we can untie it with relative ease.
SmitHunter's bend has a version that does NOT jam (readily),
which has the tails crossing/twisting (once (one half-ce?));
I think that "X" has been put into its name for this.
And Ashley's #1452 is another quite-like option,
along with the #1425.  --also Thrun's Joint ("Zeppelin"),
esp. if one is keen to have Tails exit in opposite directions.

An ends-joint ("e2e joint") I use often, because of its
ready accommodation of dissimilar ends (cordage),
slack-security, and forcible loosening for untying
(i.e., pulling on the U-fold end's legs will prise out material
from the other piece, adequate for then untying the knot),
is a multiple Lapp Bend (which, singular-wise, is a
Reverse (same-side) Sheet Bend).

--dl*
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--dl*
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anything