Improving "Draw/Highwayman's Hitch"

[Dan_Lehman]

Some decade or so ago, Roo & I pursued some places
promulgating the so-called "Highwayman's (or Draw) Hitch",
which we believed dangerous because the heavily loaded
S.Part can fold the slip-tuck toggle finish and spill or
otherwise deform the knot.  (Even if only deformed,
it then becomes pretty unreleasible as intended.)

One of my first thoughts was simply to swap the
orientations of the first two U-folds (bights) put
up against the object --i.e., to have the 2nd-cast
one put through the first (which 1st is S.Part's),
and thus the heavy load will bear upon this 2nd
U-fold --what I regard as the *frame*-- and the
slip-tuck toggle U-fold will go through the frame,
and be protected from heavy load.

I just figured another way, in which one makes
the published structure up to the 2nd step when
the 2nd U-fold is put around the S.Part's U-fold ::
NOW, this 2nd one having gone around the 1st,
pull it (2nd) back up through the 1st, and fold
the 1st around sort of larkshead-like,
and tuck the slip-bight out through the brought-up
U-fold.
.:.  It tightens rope materail in the frame to give
good support for the toggling bight.  The S.Part
pulls hard into its turn around a frame leg, and
only lightly pressures the toggling, slip-bight.


--dl*
====

[mcjtom]

Not sure what I'm doing wrong, but the structure I made is quite difficult do dress and cinch.  Could you sketch it?

[Dan_Lehman]

Not sure what I'm doing wrong, but the structure I made is quite difficult do dress and sinch.  Could you sketch it?

The first two placing of U-folds follows tradition;
but then the 2nd-placed (around 1st) U-fold is
pulled back up through 1st,
casting what might look like spectacles (-; into
the first as it is capsized for each leg to turn
around the 2nd's legs.
THEN comes some dressing-setting action,
to nudge this eyeglass bit snugger to the object,
and to pull on release tail just to bring down a bit
any excessive gap through which
the slip-tuck goes qua toggle.

--dl*
====

[Dennis Pence]

I have trouble with written descriptions as well (because I know I am a visual learner).  But here is my best guess as to what Dan seems to be suggesting.

First let me say that all of the drawings for what is usually called the Tumble Hitch (which is Dan's improvement on the Draw/Highwayman's Hitch) have most of the tying in the back of the rail.  (See Roo's Notable Knot Index, Animated Knots by GROG, or Wikipedia.) My first diagrams below show this.

I like to tie the Tumble Hitch in front (but it is exactly the same knot).  This is the second diagram.  Then I show what I think Dan is suggesting in the third diagram (but in the front so you can see more clearly what goes where).

[Dan_Lehman]

Then I show what I think Dan is suggesting in the third diagram
(but in the front so you can see more clearly what goes where).

No, but in "no" you bring some further options to the table!
Your (mis)interpretation of my knot l00ks good, too --better !?

Again --and visual or not, words have pretty definite meanings--,
begin as BOOKS SHOW : S.Part's U-fold set against object;
and then next U-fold is cast AROUND(outside, surrounding) this
--not my reversing of these into "Tumble H." orienation.

So, this is the trad. way, SO FAR.
BUT THEN pull the 2nd-placed, surrounding U-fold
back up through the S.Part's,
pulling it so that it casts hard turns into S.Part's U-fold
(much like Ashley's shown Slingstone hitch #1697 & #272).
ANd one might do some size adjustments here.

Now, the slip-tuck goes out through the hauled-back-up
U-fold,
and the S.Part's hard bearing turns around the "frame"
of the 2nd-cast/brought-up U-fold, and less against
the slip-tuck which is pulled into this "frame".

Release might be less "quick/clean" as some others,
requiring perhaps alternating pulling of Tail & S.Part
to get it free.  But I think it avoids *traps* such as
putting in a finely nipping loop that alas can continue
finely nipping/holding, 'a la sheepshank, when one
has hoped that the overall structure will spill!
(NB : pulling on line well removed from the hitch
can be over surfaces that impede good delivery
of tension up into the knot (thinking of canyoneers
and rope running over rock).

--dl*
====

[mcjtom]

Again --and visual or not, words have pretty definite meanings--

I'd like to respectfully disagree: have you tried counting knots in this version of ABoK? :⁠-⁠)

As it is, it requires a little concerted effort to elucidate one's thoughts - e.g. making a sketch/taking a photo, resampling it to 100 kB, uploading file as opposed to pasting, renaming jpeg extension etc.  Wouldn't it be great if the new discussion board had an integrated sketching module akin to Paint 3D that Dennis is using so skilfully to explain things for others e.g. I wouldn't understand how Karash harness worked without it and despite the video.

[Dan_Lehman]

Again --and visual or not, words have pretty definite meanings--

I'd like to respectfully disagree: have you tried counting knots in

The case at hand was clearly defined sans graphic
by referring to the trad. HighH. knot and stating
to follow that in positioning the 2nd-cast U-fold;
so, presenting knots all of which reversed this
is not defensible --though it has proved exploratively
productive!

(-;

[Dennis Pence]

I will try again.  The reference to Ashley's Slingstone Hitch helped alot.

I find this attempt at describing what Dan has indicated to be hard to tighten, but I have indicated how you might do that.  I also find it hard to "quick-release" this knot.  If it is really tightened well, it is very hard to get the free end to straighten enough for it to pull free.

I think that I like my version in Post 3 better because it is easier to tighten and release.

P.S.  Let's make sure we don't discourage Dan from making his many creative suggestions.  I for one am glad he started this topic!

[KC]

By any other name, the same,  favor #3 in 3rd post pic shown as Tumble_2(?) not sure of name ongoing forward, by whom etc.  Am kinda a visual learner also, and that is what try to lend(especially with my words), end envision doing so on this soon, always behind tho..
.
To me the 3rd post/3rd pic 'T2' goes from the original more 'daisy chained' slip reminiscent of Highwayman's Hitch's slip
>>traded for a more , very well contrived, direct/stronger real clean nip also at top/most opposing side of host than load pull as an input , higher pressure nip and firmer on the 1st nip now also locked over, changing 'attitude' of knot some.
>>These(adjusted, early/before last bitt/Bitter End type of top nippers) always 'hang' better for me, especially adjusted a bit at top, or push SPart back against the turn around it for a bit  to adjust/and stay at less less deformity against SPart, and just hangs different..
>>like a Sailor's or close sibling Pile with 'proper' top crossings at top nip noon from a 6'colock pull.  Sailor's "holds fast" more Naturally, harder to keep Pile in that position, except in right ratios when Pile(d) on a hook, then so Naturally takes/and keeps that premium position, more so too, that seems build can relax better into for coming load against. 
.
The 'T2' version seems to take more fiddling around to dress down snugged all around vs. some of the draws up nicely prescriptions noted on a few as premium in ABoK.

[Dan_Lehman]

I will try again.
The reference to Ashley's Slingstone Hitch helped alot.

Do not pass Go.

Again --words have pretty definite meanings--,
begin as BOOKS SHOW : S.Part's U-fold set against object;
and then next U-fold is cast AROUND (outside, surrounding) this
--not my reversing of these into "Tumble H." orientation.

The Slingstone folding comes via the next step,
of pulling the surrounding U-fold back up through
the first-set S.Part's U-fold.

Note that I have some motivation to favor knot
workings in which cordage does most of the work,
not depending upon having a nicely shaped (convex)
object to bear against as part of the knotting
--which could then run into problems as relative
sizes of cordage-vs-object make for too much
space where pressure is needed!


--dl*
====

[mcjtom]

P.S.  Let's make sure we don't discourage Dan from making his many creative suggestions.  I for one am glad he started this topic!

Of course I wouldn't dare to try to discourage Dan!  Far from it!  I just can't help to notice that defining knots using the Reverse Pictionary method does not seem to work too well... :⁠-⁠)

[Dennis Pence]

I'll keep trying!  Here is another attempt.  I liked the looks of this one, but the quick-release loop tended to pull out when I pulled hard on the standing part.  Probably still things wrong!

Then I tried the next version, and it locked better.

[mcjtom]

Note that I have some motivation to favor knotworkings in which cordage does most of the work,not depending upon having a nicely shaped (convex)object to bear against as part of the knotting

This knot may be of interest then:

Reeve a bight through the ring and bring it down to the boat just above deck. Put a Single Hitch with the standing part around the downhanging loop or bight, just as you would start a Sheep-shank Knot. Then reeve a bight from the loose end of the painter as shown in the second drawing. By pulling on the end the whole knot is easily spilled and withdrawn.
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V
(Click only in case of emergency :⁠-⁠) #1873)

I think it's a really neat and practical construct - the bowline-like choking loop makes it seem solid (when slack and in tension) and not that difficult to spill either afterwards.  And it's OK for the last tug to capsize under S-Part tension.

[KC]

'Tumble series' i think purposefully doesn't distort the SPart so; as type of reversed pull Backhand Turn type, were outer leg is maintained against inverting to becoming control leg. ABoK Lesson#1725 is fave example, I instead size finish with HH pre-fix to buffer load, shocks and spread output to friction Hitch, favoring 'Half-Pro' with slack pulled thru S.Part side so Hitch grabs firmer as dress out.
But #1873 is a quick release solution, as kinda a software toggle type.

[Dan_Lehman]

I'll keep trying!  /// Probably still things wrong!

Of course it's still wrong --you're still ignoring
the tying guidance given, which is quite simple.
)-:

For more images, consider the state at Step 5 here:
www.animatedknots.com/highwaymans-hitch-knot
Now,
at this point, one simply pulls the surrounding U-fold
up through the S.Part's U-fold (pushing it down into
the sort-of-SlingstoneH.-like shape),
and then adjust the pulled-up U-fold to receive that
from the Tail --the "slip tuck", if you will.

Eyeing the result now, I see that the S.Part will turn
around (only) ONE part --hmmm, not a great feature!
The S.Part's U-fold, before put into "slingstone h. form"
by pulling that other through it,
can be given a twist so that its loaded side turns now
partly around itself AND a side of the frame --> 2 parts.
Take care, though, to dress and set this well!


--dl*
====