Improving "Draw/Highwayman's Hitch"

[Dennis Pence]

Thanks.  I finally figured out that my big mistake was to always start with a Tumble Hitch.  I finally reread the title of the post and realized that I needed to begin with a Draw Hitch.  I can now even clearly see the "eye glasses" in the third diagram below.

By the way, Ashley does not seem to have the Draw Hitch (which many call a Highwayman's Hitch).  But it can be found in Knotting by "Gilcraft" with was a series from the famous scout reservation Gilwell Park just outside of London, England and published in 1929.  Ashley may not have this knot, but he does have this "Gilcraft" book listed among his many references.

Sorry I am so slow to understand, but it has been fun!  I like the knot, now that I understand it. 

[mcjtom]

Of course it's still wrong --you're still ignoring the tying guidance given, which is quite simple.)-:

Oh, dear... 😭

https://youtu.be/Lu0_eFc92Hc

[mcjtom]

Dennis, I tried Paint 3D.  Could you offer a few tips on making rope sketches like yours?  Are you using 2D canvas or mixing it with 3D objects?  Is the rope drawn piecemeal or as one object (if one, how to move sections behind or in front other sections?  Cheers!

[Dennis Pence]

I started out more than 20 years ago drawing things by hand, first by pencil so I could often erase, and then over by ink.  Then I would distribute the results by a copy machine.  Next, I got a scanner, and so I could scan in my drawings and insert then in computer documents.  I first started to use a drawing program (previous to Paint) just to "clean up" my scanned images a little.  I just use the 2D option in Paint 3D with nothing fancy now.  I now sketch directly in the drawing program, starting out with a very thin pencil in a light color until I get the shape I want, like my early work in pencil.  Then I draw over with a thicker black pencil.  I still spend longer than I should "cleaning up" my drawings.  I have a large folder with everything I have ever drawn, so I rarely start from scratch but rather pick something similar or an old, cruder drawing of the same knot.  I also have a huge Word Document (over 300 pages) with an alphabetical list of every knot article I have written about knot topics.  I check it whenever I start a new topic (because I forget what I have written before).  Two weeks ago, I participated in a Scout Leader Training program where I taught knot and rope topics (and how to teach them to youth).  I handed them a 35-page document describing every knot and rope topic required in the rank advancement or in any merit badge.  {Animated Knots by GROG has a page listing all of these requirements in the US and the UK, but the US list is out of date.}

Just to get back to the topic at hand, the Draw Hitch is not in the list of required knots for the Boy Scout of America anywhere, but the Troop Program Resources website of the BSA does recommend it for large pioneering projects where a piece might need to be lifted up into place.  Of course, for this application, the free end must be very long so that the knot can be "released" from the ground.  Ashley has an even simpler quick-release knot he suggests for bucket lowering in  ABoK #2154, again with a long free end.  But these applications probably don't need the added security that Dan is suggesting.

[Dan_Lehman]

big mistake was to always start with a Tumble Hitch.
I finally reread the title of the post and realized
that I needed to begin with a Draw Hitch.
I can now even clearly see the "eye glasses" in the third diagram below.
. . .
Sorry I am so slow to understand, but it has been fun!
I like the knot, now that I understand it.

But you STILL don't --albeit you're getting closer.
2 B quick :: you need to load what you show as Tail,
and in your Step 3 be taking the longer end (what
you mistakenly load) out-away-right_of shorter end
(to be loaded) and make the slip-tuck from behind,
coming forwards (so, opposite to your arrow).

In presentation, I lay the to-be-loaded S.Part U-fold
on the FRONT of the object, and ... .
But given your Step 1, in Step 2 show the brought
around front U-fold put around the 1st (nothing more),
and give the black arrow straight up for its path
in next move,
which will cast the "cat eyes" INTO THE S.Part's U-fold.
(looking at the cat-eyes, one can see that with the
correct twist to them one can put the 2-B-loaded
strand such that it turns around the other strand
and of course also the frame).

Bit by bit,
but do note that I continually said to begin as
for trad. knot and not in the revised orientation
of "tumble".

NB  :: the knot of your latest venture does NOT
look so good --robust vs. pull-through capsizing!
If one goes cross-eyed in those cat eyes --i.e.,
twist them (crossing this U-fold's legs thus) before
they surround the other U-fold,
then there is some cordage to block pull-through;
but I'm not sure that it's fully adequate, and folding
the slip-tuck even if that doesn't capsize out of being
knotted will mean inhibiting release (so, too, can the
trad. Highwayman's H. fail :: holding, but no longer
releasable).

One must also carefully consider how this knot
is to be used --materials and circumstance ::
i.p., might the release require pulling on both
ends --the Tail (of course) to release, but then
the S.Part to completely unknot things?
Might the knotted structure have to be pulled
AROUND the tied-to object?  (which might not
be so easily done).
And all this from some 50' or so distance,
rope running over surfaces and with its elasticity
and variable friction vs. surface not able to give
steady good force into the knot (which worked
well in the arm chair in the Ivory Tower!) ??!
And so far below, one is wondering what has
happened up there, not knowing if perhaps
a state has been obtained for which now one
should pull the S.Part to finish release, else
pulling Tail will try to take the tangle back
around the object.


--dl*
====

[Dan_Lehman]

I started out more than 20 years ago drawing things by hand,
first by pencil so I could often erase, and then over by ink.

Good for you --still a thing to do,
no matter the hi-tech options.

Animated Knots by GROG ...

I've urged Grog to put in a strong warning
about the vulnerability of the Highwayman's H.
to CAPSIZE/pull-through --users need to beware
THIS PARTICULAR issue, not just something
general about not relying on the knot for critical work.

Troop Program Resources website of the BSA does recommend it for large pioneering projects where a piece might need to be lifted up into place.

They should avoid this knot,
and use the version that QUITE SIMPLY
reversed the surrounded/surrounding
relationship of S.Part & frame U-folds
--i.e., in those traditional cases,
insert the frame's U-fold inside of the S.Part's,
and make the slip-tuck thus through the
frame, thus not heavily loaded possibly
to fold-&-pull-through capsizing!!

Again, there are particular ways knots work,
and particular ways they can fail.


--dl*
====

[Dennis Pence]

I am willing to keep trying!  This version is nicer.  I was able to tighten it up as indicated in the last diagram, keeping things pretty much as they are tied.  But when you pull hard on the standing part, the knotted part twists a little and pulls some away from the rail.  But it stays tied.  If the original Draw Hitch pulls any away from the rail, the slipped loop will fold under and the knot comes apart (as Dan has warned above).

[roo]

I am willing to keep trying!  This version is nicer.  I was able to tighten it up as indicated in the last diagram, keeping things pretty much as they are tied.  But when you pull hard on the standing part, the knotted part twists a little and pulls some away from the rail.  But it stays tied.  If the original Draw Hitch pulls any away from the rail, the slipped loop will fold under and the knot comes apart (as Dan has warned above).

I tried this with smaller line on a bat and was having issues with capsizing.

[Dan_Lehman]

I am willing to keep trying!  This version is nicer.

Almost there!  Tuck the slip-tuck out the opposite
direction (such that it will come across the S.Part's
path).

Roo's capsizing matches part of my mixed bag of results
in trying to tie this!  I've somehow gotten another variation,
and will look at that some more to see how/why
(I think it resulted from trying this one but loading something
 too soon with too little snugging).

One should also keep in mind how stiff-rope
will not want to pinch together so to pull out of
toggling something through an aperture that had
pinched its legs together --our needed release of pulling
out that "slip-tuck" !

(Cyrus Day, I think it is, in his Art of Knotting & Splicing,
says that someone attributed the trad. knot to "Dick Turpin",
a sailor; and then come the myths built for it of highwayman !?!?
)

--dl*
====

[Dennis Pence]

Sorry, Dan.  I cannot understand what else to try.  Anything other than what I have displayed in Reply 15 and Reply 21 tends to easily come apart when you pull on the free end.  Both Reply 15 and Reply 21 tend to pull a little away from the rail, but they generally stay tied.  Maybe someone else can understand what you intend.

[Dan_Lehman]

Sorry, Dan.  I cannot understand what else to try.

But you don't need to,
just look at your 3rd image (from left)
and see your tuck of the toggle U-fold/slip-tuck
going back-to-front;
as I said, reverse this --> front-to-back.
(which will look rather "UPward", yes).
Which brings the connected (not tail) part
of this tucked U-fold more play in resistance.

|  Tuck the slip-tuck out the opposite direction
| (such that it will come across the S.Part's path).

(-;

[Dennis Pence]

I tried several more maneuvers, and this is the only one that would hold when you pull hard on the standing part.  Even in it, if you do not tighten it enough first, the slipped bight might pull away from the rail and flip under (although it stayed tied, even when it flipped).

[Dan_Lehman]

I tried several more maneuvers,

And the one going FRONT-TO-BACK in tucking the
slip-toggle?

Even in it, if you do not tighten it enough first,
the slipped bight might pull away from the rail and flip
under (although it stayed tied, even when it flipped).

These are some questionable contrivances!
(And then come all those other factors I pointed out
above, such as impediments to delivering force to
the hitch.)

--dl*
====

[Dennis Pence]

I thought that my earlier attempt (Reply 15) went across the standing part and up through the front of the bight formed by the standing part (after the slingstone hitch).  It held better than some of my later tries.  But you need to tighten it very well or the knotted part also pulls away from the rail and partially flips the slipped loop.

[Dan_Lehman]

I thought that my earlier attempt (Reply 15) went across the standing part and up through the front of the bight formed by the standing part (after the slingstone hitch).  It held better than some of my later tries.  But you need to tighten it very well or the knotted part also pulls away from the rail and partially flips the slipped loop.

Correct finish to the wrong start --that "bight formed by the S.Part"
should NOT be formed by the S.Part but by the other U-fold, having
been pulled up through the S.Part's, casting S.Part into the cat eyes.

"need to tighten it very well" :: yeah, reducing material that can
extend/deform/do-mischief !

For some simple things, these slip-free hitches can be fine,
dandy even; but for holding critical loads and performing
under outdoor-abseil situations, one needs to be careful,
and these just might not be good solutions.

--dl*
====