Author Topic: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots  (Read 3274 times)

alanleeknots

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2023, 08:39:49 AM »
Hi Knotlike,
                 Can you please analyse my loop below ?
                  Thanks.

alanleeknots

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2023, 08:54:20 AM »
Hi Knotlikely,
                   Might at well get you to analyse another loop for me too.
                   Thanks again.

Kost_Greg

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2023, 05:09:55 PM »
The bowlines at reply#12 (second image) and at this reply here (first image), correspond to the nipping structure of munter X and munter respectively. I am bringing to mind the tail feeding through the SP HH first.

With respect to  the knot in question, one might say, that it could be formed by inducing a twist to the SP turn of a round turn nipping structure, or even remove the out-going eye leg crossing knot of the structure at reply#4 (third, fourth image).

The out going complexity is not as essential as the crossing knot component around SP, which for me is unquestionable.

It is certainly neater than the munter X, and it also maintains a stable and no prone to jamming state at heavy stress. It may be considered, as an improvement to the round turn bowline, from a jam resistance perspective.

What amazes me even more, are the anti-bowlines of second and third image, which i consider as the best anti-knots that i have tied so far, even better than the previous two, conventional bowlines.

To be clear, they are not the anti-knots of the previous two, they just simply correspond to the Munter X , munter nipping structures  respectively, employing tail threading through the out-going HH first.

The vertical contact of the SP with the bight structure, develops so pοwerful constriction, so that it actually induces a curving at the returning lines!

If i assume that the line that connects the crossing knot with the nipping turn is the weak, prone to distortion link, with a closer look, we may see that it is placed between the collar and the out going line, (like a sandwich) being compressed by both components.

In my view, these two knots feature outstanding ratings, being top-ranked in my list.

I have also formed the reverse based munter bowlines that correspond to these anti-knots which are fairly good (the crossing knot, is formed around the outgoing turn, see above link).

About the knot at reply#16, i have responded  in the new knot investigations thread.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2023, 05:04:56 PM by Kost_Greg »
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Kost_Greg

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2023, 11:24:11 PM »
Per knotlikely

Quote
What about its response to heavy stress? Whatever complexity induced, should it maintain its ease of untying. This bound turn looks very harsh to me in terms of jam resistance. Have you thought about implementing Dan's  mirrored janus -like method? It would had given you more degrees of freedom at loosening!The knot would certainly be more stable yet not so aesthetic as the mirrored bwl!

As of this statement, I don't believe that you've ever tested my bowline in any line that it can be used on for its purpose.  Please take any cordalette from 6mm dynamic to stiff static rope at 11.5mm and tie my knot.  Put your full strength into tightening all 4 lines, starting and ending with the tail.  The two moves (seriously?!?  per my last email...) will release it every time, despite it feeling like it will take a hammer and a marlin spike to undo.  (I can't speak for its use in fishing line or 550 as a releasable knot.  Sorry.)

That's true i have tied it but never tested it in my 10 mm very stiff static line, only in small diameter rope, but i' ve seen many bowline tests ,and conversed with individuals who conducted myriads of tests as well and shared their valuable experience.

I don't mean to take the wind out of your sails, but i have seen bowlines with simple nipping loops, like Eskimo, kalmyk, Cossack .to turn into stones after heavy stretching by Alan Lee.

That means that we have to try very hard (including me) to develop releasable bowlines, unless the loading zone of interest ranges from 0 to 5 KN.

Note that  the anti-bowline jams at 730 kg (20%MBS) and the butterfly knot at about 400 kg when eye loaded. It appears as though, the hammer and the marlin spike tool, is a one way road to decompress the jammed kalmyk at around 30% of MBS(maybe even less) of this specific line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtx1vH25JpU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbRDGe9pmmU
« Last Edit: November 01, 2023, 11:51:54 PM by Kost_Greg »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2023, 12:21:17 AM »
Can you please analyse my loop below ?
Alan, I'd "fore<->aft" this ::
 use the Outgoing Eye Leg as S.Part, and vice versa;
 then run the Returning Eye Leg through the nipping loop(s),
  initially being beside Outgoing Eye Leg at the eye collar,
  as the yellow strands go but collaring the (new) S.Part (the white AND yellow strand)
--Tail exits parallel to itself (i.e., R.E.Leg) as for a BWL.

.:.  This gives the S.Part a 3dia. turn,
and a non-immediate exit into eye (will this maybe
help tame slipping of HMPE cordage --and HMPE core
within a polyester sheath, note?!

The two longish U-fold collars (around S.Part, both,
separately) should enable loosening.

--dl*
====

ps : BTW, in your Eskimo BWL testing, I'd tie the
knot differently :: the S.Part should bite hard into
the TAIL, not R.E.Leg.  (I.e., it should be to the Lapp
Bend what the BWL (#1010) is to the (same-side
Sheet Bend (so, both bends/joints are same-side
as basis.  Dress it to have Tail taking the S.Part's
initial turn.  (One CAN dress the Tail to be AWAY
from this, locked snugly under the R.E.Leg.)

--dl*
====

alanleeknots

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2023, 05:59:47 AM »
Dan,

       Thank you very much for your comment. I need time to read and understand what you said .
         Here I would like to share how I found the two loops that I have posted.
           Below are the two base use for the two loops.   Thanks.

alanleeknots

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2023, 06:06:57 AM »
   
   Abok #1033 Transformation base knot.

alanleeknots

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2023, 06:27:41 AM »
Greg, Thank for you comment, all the links you show, just no image shows up.
        Can you please bring in some of your knot pictures will be much appreciate.  thanks.

Kost_Greg

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2023, 05:39:13 PM »
Sorry Alan, i incorrectly read the knot that you posted at reply#15 as a PET eyeknot, so i made the appropriate editing at my own reply#17.

I dind't realize that you crossed over into non-PET, knots with figure eight and overhand nipping components stabilised with U-fold bight structures as pseudo bowlines.

It's good to see you employing inverted forms, they are more pliable than those of conventional shape.

I think i know where Dan is directing you, because i have also walked this path, but i also would be interested to know the response of your particular designs at heavy stretching.

What i know for sure, is that they are more stable and in some cases as jam resistant as bowlines with simple nipping loops.

More details when i have some images.
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alanleeknots

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2023, 02:46:46 AM »
Greg, Thanks for your concern.

alanleeknots

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2023, 03:30:34 AM »
Quote
For the first time that I have ever read, I actively disagree with Alan Lee.  I do not like the Munter X.  It is a complicated nipping loop to form PET and it deforms into a loopback like my Reversed Girth Hitch, but without any qualities that help it hold anything.  It definitely will not seize, but neither will a slip knot.
Hi Knotlikely, I heard what you said, but your voice was little too loud, it hurting my ear. I think nobody can read my mind, including you, without asking me why I have such a comment and right away you make the conclusion.
Well, l am confused here, maybe my comment is totally wrong, if so I will delete it.
l talk to myself, maybe you are as good as some of the famous knot experts here, like Dan, Xarax and Mark.  So I have done some research and found  you had made a great contribution to the forum. see this link; https://forum.igkt.net/index.php?topic=6817.msg44934#msg44934
Wow !!! Amazing l wasn't aware you had invented "The best climbing harness tie-in knot" out there. That is why I request free analysis of my two new knots above. I want to learn from you. So far, I haven't had any response from you.
Here I call out again, if you feel like you don't want to do it, it is fine too.  If I have time, I will do it myself. Thanks.

KnotLikely

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2023, 05:57:17 AM »
Now that's the vim and vigor that I was looking for in a comment thread, plus some new nipping loops to play with!  Yay!  (sorry if my exclamation points were a little loud.)

I can see you're not serious, but I'll indulge you anyway.  This will take a while.  That's a lot of pics in a short time when I'm short on time.  You haven't had a response in a while (a few days? really?) because life requires more from me than checking this board and apparently riling people up with the tiniest of differences of opinion.  Sorry.

I'll quote myself, I guess. 
Quote
I believe that there may be a misunderstanding of the intended purposes for which each person is attempting to create a knot.

I tie my knots only for the purpose of having an all purpose knot for myself (and anyone else who may find it useful), usually for the purposes of tying into my harness, setting top ropes off trees and gear, tying up a boat and occasionally pulling a stump when I have a rope and chunk of carpet but didn't bring the chains.  I found it so useful since I haven't been able to bring it to failure of its intended purposes, mostly stability, security, and being always releasable.  I keep bringing it up because I don't feel that anyone has actually tested it for its purposes and I see people looking for the qualities that it has.

As for your first knot,
Quote
Hi Knotlike,
                 Can you please analyse my loop below ?
                  Thanks.

I do love that nipping loop.  I stumbled on it while trying, and failing, to find every modification of the 8 as a nipping loop around the time that I found my knot.  I found it in my old "on bowlines" text document labeled as "z turn on tail exiting double z turned 8."  It is extremely secure for having no further moves to the tail.  It locks down quite hard without any tail modification.  I never tested that line of nipping loops further, immediately, because they were not PET, and later, because I had found my knot.  It does not resist ring loading as well as I would like it to.  The collar tightens quite easily and has nothing to restrict it from pulling tight.  (the 90 degree turn of the standing end out of the switchback in my knot helps only slightly with this, the locking down into a rock does the rest)  If the ongoing eye leg (held only by collar) manages to loosen first and reposition above the standing part "collar" formed by the SP side (non-nipping loop) part of the figure 8, a ring load can partially deform / roll the knot and release the tail quite easily.  An End Bound move on the tail prevents this line position switching deformation and helps keep the knot (ongoing line, specifically) locked stiff once lightly loaded.  The End Bound of the tail also locks the "twisted collar" "loopback" of the non-nipping loop end of the figure 8 to force a harder bend of the SP to prevent deformation of the collar on ring loading.  (harder to roll)

This knot and its crossing lines is harder to untie, despite having the same "pull the collar, feed line, pull the switchback, feed line" release move as my knot.  The switchback release does not directly release one of the two nipping loops.

If my gym ever forbade me from removing the figure 8 that everyone leaves on the climber's side of the top rope, I'd be using this bowline form along with the End Bound move for the tail to add a third line through the nipping loops and to add additional security. (or probably just tying in with an 8.  It is just top rope, after all, and unlikely to load hard enough to be harder to untie than this knot.)

As for Dan's suggestion of reversing the standing and ongoing eye leg, (I think I read all his non-picture instructions correctly) I don't really like how the doubled line under the collar forms the switchback around the ongoing eye leg.  It does add a third line through the primary nipping loop but the ongoing eye leg (and the knot in general) stays incredibly loose when held by its own self in such a way.  A slight wiggle after deloading sees the tail free to move, at least in my usual knot tying practice rope (Edelrid Boa Gym 9.8mm)

Alan, I'm not sure why you think I'm trying to read your mind.  I understand why you could like the knot.  I made no conclusions about your thoughts.  I simply stated (for my own reasons... those stated above) that I didn't like the knot that you said that you liked.  That's... not... I... I have no idea why that set you off.

As for "The best climbing harness tie-in knot" out there?  Yep.  I've tied every one I've ever seen put forth for the purpose hundreds of times.  I've used them in the gym.  I judge them by my personal tastes (I like the tail ending within the loop for lead climbing and I like them PET, for instance) and I've compared them to all the knots listed as suitable for the purpose in Mark Gommers Analysis papers.  I've gone over it and over it.  I can tie in and untie more quickly with mine.  I can do it blindfolded without having to feel around or question it.  I feel more secure with mine every time I feel any looseness with any of the others while climbing.  I pull a thousand pounds with my knot and untie it with my hands.  I flog it after hand tightening and it doesn't move at all.  I ring load it and the collar still feeds the standing line.  It is the best that I have found.  Do you have another contender that I can play with for a week or two?  I'd love that.

My only purpose of joining this forum was to find the best harness tie-in knot.  This is the internet.  Cunningham's Law applies.  Mine is the best.

Nobody has shown me I'm wrong, so I'm starting to wonder.

Anyway, the next time you want me to shut up, it would be much simpler to just say "Hey, KnotLikely. Bug off." or just block me so you don't see my posts.  You don't really need to post a bunch of sarcastic nonsense.

I saved the pics.  I'll definitely be tying them, someday soon(ish).  I won't bother you any more (did my one comment of a single tiny disagreement between my opinion and yours really bother you that much?!?) It is long past time for bed.  Don't wait up for me to post again, this time.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2023, 06:18:30 AM by KnotLikely »

alanleeknots

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2023, 01:16:12 PM »
 Hi Knotlikely, Please stop, don't cry any more. 

Andreas

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2023, 02:47:15 PM »
maybe a good opportunity to repeat, what makes a high quality knot... 

regards

alanleeknots

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2023, 11:34:01 PM »
         
          Congratulations Kost Greg you have created a beautiful knot. The structure is quite simple, easy to read and understand the nipping structure, not too bulky, not too complicated to tie, have not problem with soft rope. and is jam poof.
Remember, not all knots can handle stiff rope. Not all knot lovers use stiff rope to tie their knots. I like it. I learn a lot from it. Thanks again.