Author Topic: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots  (Read 3268 times)

Kost_Greg

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2023, 06:31:03 PM »
Andreas you have probably heard about the standard properties that establish a high quality knot, such as security, stability, tensile strength, ease of tying and untying, TIB ability, efficient rope usage, complexity, bulkyness, and so on.

It is feasible to obtain measurable values only for some of the above, such as tensile strength, jamming thresholds , and amount of rope required to form any knot.

Perhaps a general framework, with certain rules or certified tests needs to be configured in order to define precise security and stability levels of a so called inherently secure and stable knot.

Thanks Alan, i think you should also investigate the anti/bowlines (Eskimos) as well, they didn't give me any hard time at loosening with my soft ropes.

It seems rather unlikely for any returning line slippage to arise out of these profiles, it's completely restrained by SPart's vertical nipping power.
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2023, 06:42:03 PM »
If my gym ever forbade me from removing the figure 8 that everyone leaves on the climber's side of the top rope,
I'd be using this bowline form along with the End Bound move for the tail to add a third line through the nipping loops
and to add additional security.
(or probably just tying in with an 8.  It is just top rope, after all, and unlikely to load hard enough to be harder to untie than this knot.)
The Lehman8 or a tucked Quick8 would use the awaiting,
de rigueur Fig.8 base.  More mischievous could be transforming
that "8" into the BWLesque mid-flype form (with the two loops), and
simply "in-&-out"ing a collar as in The BWL; there are other options.
Tying in with F8 tracing begun at the S.Part end will give a decent
knot similar to what has been called the "Competition Knot" --an
Offset OH corresponding eye knot.

Quote
As for Dan's suggestion of reversing the standing [part] and [outgoing]eye leg
(I think I read all his non-picture instructions correctly),
I don't really like how the doubled line under the collar [nb : there are two :
around the S.Part & around both eye legs (and Tail, whaTHEck)[
 forms the switchback around the [out]going eye leg.
It does add a third line through the primary nipping loop but the [out]going eye leg
(and the knot in general) stays incredibly loose when held by its own self in such a way.
Hmmm.  It does NOT put a 3rd dia. in the nipping loop,
really; but there IS a sort of impediment to S.Part bending
before this which might add to the effect.
  (And I should note that
so far Mark & I (et al.?) have only some conjecture
that a 3rd dia. will ease the curve & improve (thus!) strength,
but not data so supporting --and maybe SOME data running
contrary : that of twin-eye Fig.8 knots NOT showing any
gain in strength, though there the S.Part has FOUR diameters!
   Now, keep in mind that it's not diameters per se no matter
what, but a shaping of the S.Part's bending, where likely
ideally --again, my conjecture (and maybe a "YMMV" per cordage!)--
the curve is of a "decreasing radius" sort, ever tighter after
initial gradualness, bit-by-bit absorbing force in adjacent
parts.)

So, 2 B Perspicuous :: Alan's starting form as show
but with S.Part the upper-Left part,
and Returning Eye Leg coming in the simple way
parallel to Outgoing ELeg to collar the S.Part (with
a U-fold) and back out parallel-adjacent to the eye
legs, all thus collared together.


Quote
(Edelrid Boa Gym 9.8mm)
Thanks for this important bit of context !!
How's this rope feel to you, compared with other
climbing ropes?
I have some (10.2, or .5? mm) Slim Gym, which was
a surprise to me in seeming so non-gym-like flexible!?
Previously got was some gym rope that betrayed its
intended use by obvious stiff, beefy-mantle feel.
--esp. one can find ease or difficulty in making 1dia
(even 2dia) bends with firm ropes; ha, with some of
the caving ones, just laugh out loud at almost ANY bending! :oP )

Quote
As for "The best climbing harness tie-in knot" out there?  Yep.
I've tied every one I've ever seen put forth for the purpose hundreds of times.
(-:  ambiguous English :: hundreds of times put forth, or tied?)
And the EBDB** failed to win your use, why?

(**I'm wanting a better name, as the name "end-bound"
really should cover a LOT of variously shaped structures;
here, we have "Tail-looped" (?!) finish.  (--though Tail-Looped
and "Tail-Loaded" share the "TL" initials : TLoaded of 1010
being the novelty I found in arbor tape, and fancy!)


--dl*
====
« Last Edit: November 07, 2023, 01:13:54 AM by Dan_Lehman »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2023, 06:57:23 PM »
Andreas you have probably heard about the standard properties
that establish a high quality knot, such ...
And which are typically put forwards in a simplistic assertion.
Most notably absent is a consideration of What-Material-So-Knotted.
 
Quote
... as security, stability, tensile strength, ease of tying and untying,
 TIB ability, efficient rope usage, complexity, bulkyness, and so on.
Aspects that can differ w/material, or be irrelevant per use
--what angler ever unties which of their used knots?!
Or tying sans ends for a person tying to a closed ring?!

Quote
with certain rules or certified tests needs to be configured
in order to define precise security and stability levels of a so-called
"inherently secure" and stable knot.
Notably, vice slow-pull strength tests,
multiple-drop (Fall Factor 1, less?) tests for both
effects of multiple loadings (and of these vs a
knot's say non-jamming & so repeatedly *moving* (=friction?))
on peak impact force and maybe some hidden
"ratcheting" loosening.

BTW, I too was much surprised that Alan got jammed
Eskimo BWLs !!?  They didn't l00k all so jammed, but
then he pushed in all the right places to try to loosen
them and ... they didn't budge !!


--dl*
====

alanleeknots

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2023, 07:33:45 PM »
Hi All,
        I have a video called "Restore Vanish knots" on YouTube  and give a satisfaction run,
        so my work is complete. Thanks  alanlee.

Kost_Greg

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2023, 01:51:00 AM »
Hey Alan, i assume that you had posted them in the forum the good old times, but you can't find them anymore.

Anyway, it's a good opportunity for all to refresh these simple but basic concepts, in order to get a firm grasp of them before advancing to more complex stuff.

What is actually a girth/cow hitch?

In my view, it may be interpreted as a nipping turn/loop of reverse polarity, nested within a crossing knot, formed with an inward curving of the SP which is a direct, crossing knot collar, continuation.

It also worths mentioning, that it features dynamic chracteristics, meaning that it is feasible for the components to exchange roles by simply changing the SP directions within the nub, without having to induce an 180 degrees nub rotation.

I can't think of a nipping structure with such a potential.

Example: if you do that to a loop, it simply falls apart to a simple line.

Hence, fourth crossing knots produce fourth girth/cow hitches, state 1 and state 2, and the mirrors formed as described previously.

On the contrary, the very next structures 3,4, are round turn crossing knots, formed by loops of same polarity.

The bowlines derived out of these formations, are round turn Samisen and round turn Karash, while both are collapsing to a round turn, double bowline, when threading WE through the SP turn first.

Thanks for reposting them, i think the bwls coming from the girth hitches, leave the others behind.
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KnotLikely

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2023, 07:14:39 AM »
Quote
The Lehman8 or a tucked Quick8 would use the awaiting,
de rigueur Fig.8 base.  More mischievous could be transforming
that "8" into the BWLesque mid-flype form (with the two loops), and
simply "in-&-out"ing a collar as in The BWL

I hope I have the time to reference and understand that some time soon.


Quote
Hmmm.  It does NOT put a 3rd dia. in the nipping loop,
really; but there IS a sort of impediment to S.Part bending
before this which might add to the effect.
  (And I should note that
so far Mark & I (et al.?) have only some conjecture
that a 3rd dia. will ease the curve & improve (thus!) strength,
but not data so supporting --and maybe SOME data running
contrary : that of twin-eye Fig.8 knots NOT showing any
gain in strength, though there the S.Part has FOUR diameters!
   Now, keep in mind that it's not diameters per se no matter
what, but a shaping of the S.Part's bending, where likely
ideally --again, my conjecture (and maybe a "YMMV" per cordage!)--
the curve is of a "decreasing radius" sort, ever tighter after
initial gradualness, bit-by-bit absorbing force in adjacent
parts.)

I always just assume, especially considering the total works of HowNot2 (Youtube), that a tighter bend radius (usually in common with any slight undressing, and therefore movement friction heat, would weaken a knots strength.  I have not brought my knot to failure despite ("trying" isn't quite the right word).  I would assume that it would eventually break in the switchback of the girth hitch if the initial nipping around 3 was not the break point.  I have tied a double End Bound move to add a 4th line through the nip when I questioned the possibility of the rope breaking.

Quote
Thanks for this important bit of context !!
How's this rope feel to you, compared with other
climbing ropes?

It is supple and it can bind easily.  I use it over my other four discarded 12ft chunks of gym rope for its ability to seize into a knot that cannot be easily untied.  Stiffer ropes bind harder, but they don't bind as closely.  The center of the gym boa is almost squishy under the force of many falls.  It is closer to what I see being used at Devil's Lake than what is usual in my gym.  (softer and supple, with a slick sheath)  There are a few knots that I have tested for tie-ins that have fared worse (for untying after many lead falls) in stiffer rope, but not many, and nothing that I have ever really considered as an option for my best knot.  That said, I always test again in my stiffest ropes that I have once I think I may have a good knot for the purpose.

Quote
(-:  ambiguous English :: hundreds of times put forth, or tied?)

Tied hundreds of times each, for each of the knots that I have ever seen suggested.

Quote
And the EBDB** failed to win your use, why?

I gave up on the EBDB after a couple of climbs with many falls that cinched it harder than a very well dressed fig. 8 follow through.  My whole purpose was to find something that was 100% of the time easier to untie and was just as stable and secure.  I was pumped and I had to ask for help to untie.

Quote
(**I'm wanting a better name, as the name "end-bound"
really should cover a LOT of variously shaped structures;
here, we have "Tail-looped" (?!) finish.  (--though Tail-Looped
and "Tail-Loaded" share the "TL" initials : TLoaded of 1010
being the novelty I found in arbor tape, and fancy!)

I've thought a bit about this and decided to just stay with the language given in what I had read, mostly here.  The term "End Bound" does the movement of the tail justice, though.  You take the bitter end and you bind it through the nipping loop(s).  The nature of knots, though... there will always be ambiguity with the actual movement.  It can be made from "above" (just bind the loops) or from below (bind the ongoing eye leg, as well)... or it can be made with many other movements, depending on the almost infinitely varied structures.

---

Greg....
Quote
* Girth hitches vs round turn crossing knots.JPG

I tie my knot with your 4th (far right) form of the girth hitch, with the collar on the left side and the eye on the right and the top line being the standing line.  The other three form into a knot that is far harder to untie.  There is no built in release mechanism and the primary nipping loop does not grab the secondary nip for increased locking-down-tight stability.

I also think of the ability of a random climber to mess up the tying through inexperience or distraction.  It seems to be extremely hard to tie a knot that will fail when starting with a girth hitch in any of the four forms.  You may need a knife, but I can't find a move or two where you won't still be alive to attempt to untie it.  Even the worst possibility of forming only a single End Bound move results in a collar being created on the returning eye leg and the tail forming a couple of wraps that are locked by the "nipping collar."  Not ideal, but still a pretty secure form for a mistake that might see you dead on a double bowline.  The Girth Hitch adds a backup collar form.  I love it for that.

Kost_Greg

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2023, 05:20:12 PM »
I tie my knot with your 4th (far right) form of the girth hitch, with the collar on the left side and the eye on the right and the top line being the standing line.  The other three form into a knot that is far harder to untie.  There is no built in release mechanism and the primary nipping loop does not grab the secondary nip for increased locking-down-tight stability.

I also think of the ability of a random climber to mess up the tying through inexperience or distraction.  It seems to be extremely hard to tie a knot that will fail when starting with a girth hitch in any of the four forms.  You may need a knife, but I can't find a move or two where you won't still be alive to attempt to untie it.  Even the worst possibility of forming only a single End Bound move results in a collar being created on the returning eye leg and the tail forming a couple of wraps that are locked by the "nipping collar."  Not ideal, but still a pretty secure form for a mistake that might see you dead on a double bowline.  The Girth Hitch adds a backup collar form.  I love it for that.

Knotlikely, i guess there has been a misunderstanding/misreading because the fourth image structure, (screenshot taken from Alan Lee's video) is not a girth hitch, but a round turn crossing knot, as i have described it in my previous reply.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWVR1wPpqN8&t=380s

The derived bwl knot, is not girth hitched based, but a round turn Karash bowline.

However you could still finish it with an end bound turn, but i'm not sure about the benefits compared to Dan's EBDB.

I would prefer an ampersand/fontus lock in this case.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2023, 05:35:23 PM by Kost_Greg »
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alanleeknots

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2023, 08:33:36 PM »
    When I make a video, I always try to make it user-friendly. I have my videos if it makes sense to you or not ? All of the St part is on the right ,all incoming eye legs start from the right for the first knot and the next knot is from the left. The first knot is upright, the next  knot upside down.
Video below show 1 & 2 are Grith hitched based.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iafjbVIAKZI&t=17s&ab_channel=alanleeknots
Thanks alanlee.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2023, 09:15:51 PM »
Quote
And the EBDB** failed to win your use, why?

I gave up on the EBDB after a couple of climbs with many falls
that cinched it harder than a very well dressed fig. 8 follow through.
!! ?  Really!  The method I use to untie the knot (not having
loaded it all so hard as you must have) is to firstly draw some
of the S.Part through the collar --this'll be needed after ...-- ;
then try to prise out some S.Part from the End-Binding loop
by pulling the Tail and Returning Eye leg (the 2 parts within
the very tight nipping loop) apart.  The nipping loop might
be very tight around the End-Binder, but not so much vice versa,
so I'd expect one to get enough S.Part movement so to then
work the knot looser & untied.

Quote
The term "End Bound" does the movement of the tail justice, though.
You take the bitter end and you bind it through the nipping loop(s).
The bitter end is over by the bitts, not here.
And the "binding" is done by the Tail ("End")
of the S.Part's nipping loop, not the other way 'round
--though, yes, they loop/bind each other; but the
S.Part is there per basic knot needs, and then we're
looking for security measures to keep it well behaved!
So, ...
Quote
there will always be ambiguity with the actual movement.
... or it can be made with many other movements,
depending on the almost infinitely varied structures.
Yeah, many ways to employ the "End" (Tail).
(The basic BWL's RELeg<->Tail collars the S.Part
with a U-fold; but one might get similar effect with
a loop (and the Myrtle BWL; or inserting from opposite
side ("backside" BWL) a "Bollard Loop"/"Swedish BWL"
(as some named it) --which not only contains the S.Part
but gives some slack-security.

Btw, one might Return the Eye Leg into the "End-bound"
structure and finish w/a U-fold; this, one will suspect,
could lead to a tighter loop-through-loop situation;
but note that the Sheepshank has zilch to maintain
its U-folds put through a nipping loop, and seems to
manage ok with that.


--dl*
====

alanleeknots

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2023, 10:27:27 AM »
Hi All. I have two videos loop 002 and loop 003 on YouTube. Hope you like it.
          alanlee.

Kost_Greg

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2023, 08:38:52 PM »
Hi Alan, many thanks for feeding us with new tangles to process. Might be a good idea to include the link of your video, for new members or for people, weary of searching your youtube channel.

About the loop 002, i have not much to mention except for that's a variation of Alpineer's bowline, with the difference that the out-going eye leg, collars SP before exiting from the other side of the nipping structure.

This helical SP wrapping around the returning bight structure, strangles it so much, generating adverse conditions at loosening. Very stable but in my view, jamming is rather inevitable.

However, things radically change at your loop 003, from a nub's pliability point of view.

What we have here is a smartly set up of a reverse munter nipping structure, which i think will respond well to heavy strain.

The only component that one has to handle after hard stretching, is the helical Sp formation, but the  two access points i have indicated in the attached image, (along with the bowline collar of course) would render assistance to release the nub pressure.

I would prefer such a mechanism to accompany SP, yet, it appears that it functions properly in this case too.

The other portal of the nipping structure, results to another familiar, reverse munter based, bowline.

Note that it requires good cinching to remove all the slack between the components to avoid any SP unravelling.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2023, 08:54:33 PM by Kost_Greg »
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alanleeknots

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2023, 08:20:59 AM »
Quote
About the loop 002, i have not much to mention except for that's a variation of Alpineer's bowline, with the difference that the out-going eye leg, collars SP before exiting from the other side of the nipping structure.
Greg, Thanks for remind me the loop in video loop 001, is difference from Alpineer's bowline.
Quote
This helical SP wrapping around the returning bight structure, strangles it so much, generating adverse conditions at loosening. Very stable but in my view, jamming is rather inevitable.
The outgoing eye leg has a u-turn around St part. In this case, it is jam proof.
Anyway, thank you for your comment.

I have a picture below. The right picture is my old figure 8 like  loop, which can't handle heavyweight
And the left  figure 8 like loop, I made use of the in coming eye leg to make a u turn around St part and is now jam-proof.

https://www.youtube.com/@alanleeknots/videos
loop 001 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJtCb3xWuKI&t=46s&ab_channel=alanleeknots
loop 002 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSGFq8bm2BM&t=31s&ab_channel=alanleeknots
loop 003  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd5-Fjzo2f4&ab_channel=alanleeknots
Restore Vanish knots https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWVR1wPpqN8&t=53s&ab_channel=alanleeknots
« Last Edit: November 10, 2023, 08:25:18 AM by alanleeknots »

alanleeknots

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2023, 11:49:57 PM »
We could have the same idea. Apply a U-turn to the standing part of the crossing knot, because the collar leg near the standing part is not parallel , it may only handle near jam resistant,
If we dress the knot with the U-turn Strick out little more it may handle more weight and get close to jam-proof.  Thanks alanlee.

               

Kost_Greg

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2023, 03:19:25 PM »
In making it more complete, i'm just pointing out that alpineer's bowline features two dressings or "tresse" as he calls them, and one can alternate topologically from one to the other (see attached image).

I believe the second is not so vulnerable to blocking as the first "tresse" which is of course stronger.

For the record, the second tresse had been shown to me by Xarax, but i didn't know then that it was an alternative tresse for alpineer's bowline.

With respect to the knots at reply#41(left) and reply#42, i think that the latter outweighs the former, Just because it uses a  simpler nipping structure.

The key feauture here, in both knots i'd say, is to be able to loosen the collar component that encircles the SP, which is part of the nipping structure.

If we manage to do that, the rest is easy, the returning collar would not be a problem, at a second stage of decompression, and subsequently the  final slackening of the nipping loop, especially  that of the shaped eight structure which is a rather clamp component.

Both smart constructions, but if not the first, at least the second (reply#42), should definitely be investigated for its jamming thresold. I 'm also of the view that it can handle heavy weight.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2023, 06:25:26 PM by Kost_Greg »
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alanleeknots

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Re: Crossing knot, a foundamental knotting tool to build jam-proof knots
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2023, 08:26:36 PM »
Greg, thank for your participation. I will go over it and reply to you later.
         For now, I have another knot here. I dreamed of it for so many years and was so happy I got
         it done. Thanks alanlee.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2023, 08:28:50 PM by alanleeknots »