Dan,

I actually posted the 'original' Lehman 8 eye knot late last night... then I deleted it.

I reposted the image you disagree with - because I thought it more logically represented what Alan had tied and presented.

Yes - I acknowledge the slight variation in geometry - where the

*tail structure* lie on the opposite side of the 'S.Part'.

I thought about this late at night - and decided that the tail structure variation was a 'genus' variation - and therefore closely related (same 'genus' - but I agree, different 'species').

That is, both have the same general geometric arrangement consisting of the

union of a Figure 8 and an Overhand knot.

What differs, is precisely how this union of Figure 8 and Overhand knot is integrated.

For the sake of clarity and to address your point, I've re-uploaded your original Lehman 8 (which I had tied and photographed for you many years ago.

Note: All those years ago, you didn't complain about the image so I presume your attitude has not changed!

With regard to the number of possible corresponding eye knots that can be created from the

parent bend, the language and theory on this is open to some debate - to get the ideas straightened out (so to speak).

In the example I gave yesterday, I used the term 'principal corresponding eye knots'. This is my approach to linking opposite colour segments (blue-to-yellow in my image yesterday).

For each linked segment (blue-to-yellow) - you have a choice of 2 S.Parts.

If there are 4 principal eye knots, each having a possible choice of 2 S.Parts, this makes 8 corresponding eye knots.

Note: This is from the point of view of having the same chirality. If you take chirality into account, presumably the total number is 16?

EDIT NOTE:

Not all of the corresponding eye knots will be stable (and this is true for all corresponding derivations from any given eye knot).

With all non TIB (end of line) 'eye knots' - there is always going to be an 'S.Part' and a 'tail end'.

An eye knot that is 'EEL' (Either End Loadable) will be stable regardless if the tail or the S.Part is loaded - so that what was previously the S.Part is now the tail and vice versa.

Therefore, the fact that an eye knot has a 'tail' - does not automatically imply that it is stable if loaded from that tail.

An example of an 'EEL' eye knot is the #1080 Bowline on a bight.As I stated in yesterday's post, you cant link same colour segments.

You can only link segments of opposite colour.

If you believe it is possible to create a corresponding eye knot by linking segments

having the same colour (eg yellow-to-yellow) - I'd like you to demonstrate this please!

To be perspicuous,

given a 2-Tangle (such as holds all end-2-end joints,

and simple eye knots), where the entanglement is seen

with all parts that run out from it ("S.Parts", "Tails",

"eye legs") being its "ends",

then each end can be an eye knot S.Part, necessarily

connecting to its opposite end --what flows each to the other--

and where one or the other end of the other piece in this

>>2<< tangle serves as the Returning Eye leg, Tail.

I'd like to clarify this (somewhat):

If you have a different view, I'm happy to try to understand it.

Using the images below (yellow/blue bend):[ ] You can only link segments of opposite colour

[ ] The are 4 'principal' corresponding eye knots (which are derived from the parent bend, and are relative to the existing logical 'S.Parts')

[ ] Each of these 'principal' corresponding eye knots has 2 possible 'S.Parts' - a primary and secondary S.Part (the primary follows from the parent bend's S.Parts).

[ ] Because there are 2 possible choices of 'S.Parts' - there are therefore a total of 8 possible corresponding eye knots derived from a parent bend

NOTE: This is true for one chirality.

If chirality is taken into account, this means 16 possible derivations.

Every knot has a mirror version ('S' or 'Z') - the mirror version is usually not published by authors or content creators.

OFFSET LEHMAN 8 BEND (Edit):To add further to the list of corresponding knots, one can also derive the 'offset Lehman 8 bend' - refer to image below.

This appears to be a stable and secure offset bend - that integrates a Figure 8 with Overhand knot.

Again, there are variations to this structure - all of the same 'genus', but with slight changes to position of rope segments.

I knew of this Offset bend years ago - but always favoured my own Offset bound overhand bend (which has gained much popularity with climbers around the world).

Unfortunately, most climbers would find this too difficult - and likely complain about the usual things like, fatigue, time pressure, memory, etc in favour of more simple bends based directly on the infamous 'EDK'.